WWWII: worst losses in a day for a fighter Squadron?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Soundbreaker Welch?, Oct 9, 2007.

  1. Soundbreaker Welch?

    Soundbreaker Welch? Active Member

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    What was the worst wipe out for a fighter group, wing, squadron, flight, ect? Entire flights wiped out, it happend, I'm sure. A battle like Midway comes to mind, or perhaps Bodenplatte, or the "Turkey shoot." But there were many small skirmishes with bloody outcomes.

    Russian Front especially. What would be their worst losses?
     
  2. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    I don't have the specific details on hand, but nearly the whole IJN carrier force was wiped out in the Mariana's turkey shoot. On June 19th 1944, about 200 were shot down in four separate attacks on the same day.
     
  3. Udet

    Udet Banned

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    I think of the opening of day Unternehmen Zitadelle, July 5th, 1943, when JG 3, JG 51, JG 52 and JG 54 shot down more than 300 Soviet planes...all that in less than 24 hours, something that will compete if not surpass the so called Mariana´s Turkey Shot
     
  4. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    That would be quite impressive.

    "So called mariana's turkey shoot"? It was quite real and well documented. Nothing "so called" about it.
     
  5. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    For crying out loud Syscom3 ! He was refering to the name of the incident !

    It is more you who places any doubt on Unternehmen Zitadelle with your "would be impressive" comment! Despite that fact that it is atleast as real as the Mariana's Turkey Shoot.
     
  6. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    Udet, how many LW losses were there?

    The USN only lost a dozen or so fighters from air-to-air fighting all day long. The kill ratio for the USN was incredible.
     
  7. Soundbreaker Welch?

    Soundbreaker Welch? Active Member

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    Except those ill fated Buffalos.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

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    The worst losses for a day fighter squadron should include the American Eagle squadron freshly equiped with Spit IX's that suffered 100% losses.
    The weather forcast was wrong, they hit unplanned headwinds and ran out of fuel before getting home.
     
  9. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    Glider reminded me of a 5th AF incident in New Guinie in 1944.

    "In New Guinea the Fifth Air Force lost thirty-seven aircraft to a late-afternoon frontal system which cut them off from their home bases of Gusap, Nadzab and Saidor. Another nine were seriously damaged and, as a result, the Fifth Air Force suffered its biggest operational loss of the war. The freak weather created the biggest weather-related loss in aviation history...."
     
  10. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

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    How many of the US victories were against Kamikazes? They should count as half!

    turkey shoot video:


    300+ Japanese planes shot down by the US aircraft in 8 hrs.

    .
     
  11. Marshall_Stack

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    Torpedo Bomber Squadron 8 in the Battle of Midway comes to mind for me. All the Americans except one (Ensign George Gay) were killed as their slow planes were shot down by Zeros and AAA.
     
  12. Marshall_Stack

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    I'm sorry. I just realized that the topic is FIGHTER planes. Just as well, the Marine fighter in their Buffaloes took a heavy toll in the same battle. Don't have the stats in hand...
     
  13. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    There was a South Pacific Marine Corsair Squadron that lost every plane due to bad weather - I want to say it was something like VMF-225 but I'm not sure of the squadron. Air Classics had an article about that incident in one of their issues years ago.
     
  14. Udet

    Udet Banned

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    syscom:

    A more accurate figure for the number of soviet planes shot down by the Luftwaffe in the opening day of Zitadelle would be around 350; notice this number includes only those soviet planes shot down air-to-air by the Luftwaffe, so if we consider those soviet planes lost to Flak and accidents, then we can have an idea on how the VVS really fared during those days.

    With regard to German losses during that same day ~45 planes were lost. (all types -fighters, dive bombers, bombers-, lost to all causes: enemy planes, AA guns, written off and accidents).

    It is also important to highlight the fact the following day, July 6th, the horrific loss rate in the ranks of the VVS did continue with an additional ~170 soviet planes shot down by the Luftwaffe -here too, not included those lost to Flak and accidents-. If you follow the calendar, on July 7th, 8th and so on, the Luftwaffe continued to supply the VVS a harsh battering.

    So considering the numbers for the first two days of Zitadelle, 48 hours, with ~420 soviet planes shot down by the Luftwaffe, it would be reasonable to assume it is unlikely to have any other air force outmatching the figure for more enemy planes destroyed in air-to-air combat in a specific period of time.

    Yes, i noticed the thread title refers to "fighters", but what i do not have here with me are my papers that would show a breakdown of soviet fighter units who saw action at Kursk to determine the overall situation of those units engaged during the battle. However, and in view of soviet losses known in the opening day of Kursk, it is likely entire units did not return to their airfields.

    I have not studied the "Mariana´s Turkey Shot" that very much; i know it was a catastrophe for the Japanese, the virtual end of Japan´s carrier borne air force, but it would not surprise me at all, that like in the aerial war over Europe, this particular episode too contains exaggerations.
     
  15. AL Schlageter

    AL Schlageter Banned

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    Unlike the Turkey Shoot which resulted in the of aerial opposition by the Japanese for the rest of the war to be almost nil, Kursk had no effect on the VVS, which got stronger as the GPW progressed.

    I found this great site which lists monthly numbers for German a/c.
    The Luftwaffe, 1933-45

    For example:
    II./JG3 at

    - start of the month had 33 109s (2 G-2s, 31 G-4s, 0 G-6s)
    - end of month had 36 109s (0 G-2s, 13 G-4s, 23 G-6s)
    - due enemy action lost 24 109s (0 G-2s, 12 G-4s, 12 G-6s)
    - replacement 5 G-4s, 37 G-6s
    - Abgang/sent out (including lost to the enemy) 3 G-2s, 23 G-4s, 14 G-6s

    I would think this site would give a good indication of LW losses.

    Tony Woods has LW claim lists.
     
  16. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    The LW had the proverbial "field day" in that battle.

    As for the IJN losses in the Turkey shoot..... they are very accurate. The IJN had records on how many planes they sortied, and how many remained after the battle.
     
  17. Marshall_Stack

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    As Far as the Marianas Turkey Shoot, the exact number of Japanese planes is secondary to the fact that their naval air force came to an end. The only thing their carriers were used for afterwards were to lure Halsey away from the landing beaches in the Philippines. They were purposely sacrificed because they didn't have the aircraft or pilots to do battle.
     
  18. Udet

    Udet Banned

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    Schlageter:

    Sorry but what you said there is 100% incorrect; the horrific losses the VVS took in Kursk "had no effect" on them? You are saying that losing more than 1,000 planes IN A WEEK (July 5th-12th) in air-to-air combat only, did not have any effect on them.

    This is the typical allied style for singing history; so tell me Schlageter, when the process of attrition went on a little longer the Germans commenced observing a "significant" drop off in the quality of their pilots, especially during the second half of 1944, while the soviets WHO NEVER stopped having horrific losses of piliots and planes attained exactly the opposite? How come?

    Was the soviet training program for pilots similar to the one they had in the USA -or perhaps exceeded USA standards-? Were the political systems of the USA and USSR identical?

    In other words, you say what the allies say, something like this:

    One side (Germany) grew weaker while the other side (USSR) grew stronger...but what you are failing to mention and consider is the fact losses of pilots and planes for the soviet air force did not stop suffering horrific from beginning to end of the war.

    I can really not believe so many people took the bait and really bought the bedtime story that as the war progressed the VVS observed the type of recovery depicted on most accounts.
     
  19. AL Schlageter

    AL Schlageter Banned

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    It is not me who has been suckered with bedtime stories, Udet. :(

    In the short term, which is only natural, there was an effect on the Soviets but as you see below it did not stop the Soviets from bouncing back, and putting the run to your Germans. To me, that says the Soviets got stronger, despite their losses.

    LW losses on the Eastern Front, Sept-Dec '43 - 1736 of 2888 on strength
    LW losses on the Eastern Front, Jan-May '44 - 3214 of 2999 on strength
    LW losses on the Eastern Front, June-Oct '44 - 3650 of 2948 on strength

    Notice the rise in LW losses, more than doubling in a year, and exceeding those on strength from mid 1944. :shock: The Germans must have been some crappy pilots to be bested by the incompetent pilots you portray the Soviets to be.

    Sure the GPW was a war of attrition and the Germans lost.

    Btw, who retreated all the way to Berlin after the Battle of Kursk?
     
  20. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Udet you are failing to see the point and it does make you look rather silly when you say some of the things that you do.

    The Soviets were able to make up for there losses. The Luftwaffe was not. That is a proven fact. Germany lost a war of Attrition.

    Who cares who had better pilots. There is no need to turn this into a slug fest. The point is for every plane the Soviets lost they could replace it with 2 or 3 more and 2 or 3 more pilots. The Luftwaffe could not...
     
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