Admiral Beez
Captain
The modern-day replica Me 262 is a wonder to see. With these reliable engines, I wonder how it would do against the Meteor.
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What was the first British jet that you think could match a well-built and piloted Me 262?I think even with the original engines it would be all over the Meteor
The Germans had other jets in the works, including the 262's successor, the HGII/III series - and if I recall right, the P-80 was perhaps the closest match to the Me262's performance by early 1945.What was the first British jet that you think could match a well-built and piloted Me 262?
Per Wikipedia, the Me 262 has a top speed of 900 km/h (560 mph, 490 kn), faster than the Meteor and Vampire, but 30 mph slower than the Supermarine Attacker, first flown in 1946. By the time the Attacker is sorted, the faster Meteors should be ready.
The Javelin was such a slug that its designer Richard Walker should have retired after his Meteor was finished.Brits had to swan about with the subsonic Hunter and Javelin until the EE Lightning, although that was very much a big middle finger to everything else in terms of all-out performance.
the Lightning and the Whirlwind were both designed by W. E. W. Petter
If there was a Petter only museum, I'd go.Yup, Teddy Petter was one of the more 'adventurous' designers out there - he was also responsible for the Lysander, Canberra and the Folland Gnat.
If there was a Petter only museum, I'd go.
How does that POS survive but no Whirlwind?!For added weirdness, at Cosford is also the prone pilot Meteor that Brown flew.
View attachment 560909Prone Pilot Meteor
How does that POS survive but no Whirlwind?!
Probably the Me 262 as in most cases they were still being flown by experienced fighter pilots and the Me 262 was substantially faster.
The question depends to some extent on which Meteor
Meteor I with Welland engines, good for around 417mph, actually slower than FW 190D-9's and Me 109K-4's except for maybe sea level.
Meteor I with improved Wellands (good for about 440mph but still not better than a piston aircraft
Meteor III with early Wellands good for about 440 mph
Meteor III with Derwent II good for about 480mph (these were derated)
Meteror III with Derwent II just after end of war, good for about 490mph. (there was no Meteor II in service, this test only version had axial flow Vickers Beryl engines)
The Me 262 had a typical max speed of 540mph and about 515mph at sea level. Poor examples managed only 522mph but good ones did over 560mph due to airframe tollerances. On that basis we can say that the Me 262 could evade combat or escape if it were not on his terms. It's a big advantage.
The Meteor was most probably more manouverable in terms of turning circle (though the Vampire was much better) though I would doubt the turning rate was superior as the Me 262 was faster. The Meteor also had a higher service ceiling due to compressor surging issues that the Me 262 had. The Me 262 could be flown to a respectable 37,000ft but 30,000ft to 33,000ft represents a safe limmit for it due to those engine issues while the Meteor could get to 42,000ft. Me 262 had a higher Mach limmit and dive rate though the Meteor III's addition of speed brakes made it more able to exploit a dive. Messerschmitt could probably add speed brakes of a similar kind as the dive brake used on the Me 410.
After the end of the war highly modified Meteor III's with clipped wings, faired over gun ports and Derwent V engines managed speeds of around 600mph at sea level. The Derwent V was not really a Derwent but a scaled down Nene. The records had to be broken at sea level where the speed of sound was 750mph because at 36,000ft where the speed of sound was 660mph the Meteor would have exceded Mach limmit and possibly ended up in an irrecoverable "Mach Tuck" dive. These modifications were 'productionised' as the Meteor F4 but only in 1948. Till then Meteor III's held the line.
Bottom Line: Me 262 was much faster than Meteor and P-80A during the period of the hostillities. It could out accelerate and outclimbe the P-80A and likely the Meteor (especially as the Meteor approched its top speed) at around 25,000ft.
The Jumo 004B4 reliabillity showed promise of improving and some if well handled managed 60 hours before being refurbished. The life was not a nominal 25 hours but the MTBO (mean time between overhaul) was 25 hours. The 6 carbon steel combustion chamber cans were removed (due to corrision of the mild steel used) and the turbine blade was removed for recyling and replaced with a new one. (Officially it was x-rayed and reused for 12.5 hours if OK).
At the end of the war a new control system was meant to reach opperational service, the bescleunigungs ventile (accelerator valve) and I can provide a link to source documents. The Jumo 004B engine used a simple centrifugal governor to control RPM of the engine via the throttle, if the throttle was move to fast the gap between target RPM and actual lead to too great an increase in fuel that could burn out the engine combustion chambers and turbines or if throttleing down lead to fuel starvation.
The accelerator control valve added an aneroid capsule across the compressor to effetively measure true mass flow of air to keep the air-fuel ratio such that it neither overheated the engine or flamed it out. The system mde it onto the BMW 003. Another feature likely before the end of 1945 would be duplex nozzels whereby at low flow rates that are experience at idling or high altitude a second set of nozzles is engaged that maintains a fine fuel aerosol suitable for stable combustion. There was also postions for electronic temperature sensing in the Jumo 004B to further tame the engine and thereby extend its life and thrust.
The Jumo 004D, scheduled for 1945 production was supposed to increase thrust from 900kP to 1050 or 1100kP. Using a square root law this 19% increase in thrust should drive the Me 262 speed up by 9% or to its Mach limmit ie about 565mph at altitude and 575mph at sea level.
The Me 262 needed superior speed as its manouverabillity was likely limmited in comparison to allied jets.
Meteor III's addition of speed brakes made it more able to exploit a dive. Messerschmitt could probably add speed brakes of a similar kind as the dive brake used on the Me 410.
What was the endurance of a Gloster Meteor during April 1945? I suspect no better then a Me-262.
The 650 miles figure is CAP range with no combat - if the 262 had to intercept/engage, that range dropped dramatically.Basic figures I have (still air range, no extra tanks):
Me 262 - 650 miles
Meteor III - 580 miles
Basic figures I have (still air range, no extra tanks):
Me 262 - 650 miles
Meteor III - 580 miles