Zyzygie’s Mumbles and Rambles

[GrauGeist]

Uh...

 

[Zyzygie]

Unfortunately no: "Jet Planes of the Third Reich" by Smith and Creek. I suspect an ill-advised simplification.

On the advisability of airbrakes on the Me 262.

Also see :
The Me 262 Stormbird: From the Pilots Who Flew, Fought, and Survived It

 

[Snautzer01]

Unfortunately no: "Jet Planes of the Third Reich" by Smith and Creek. I suspect an ill-advised simplification.

Time. It would have taken more time to produce and test it and to get it right. Also pressurized cockpit was deleted as was ejection seat. Simplify and win time.

 

[Dan Fahey]

Interesting?
The Meteor at 415 mph was as fast as the Bell P-59

Were the Bell P-59 engines reasonably reliable?

 

[wuzak]

Interesting?
The Meteor at 415 mph was as fast as the Bell P-59

Were the Bell P-59 engines reasonably reliable?

Meteor I
Engine: Two Rolls-Royce W.2B/23 Welland I turbojets
Thrust: 1,600lb/ 7.1kN each
Span: 43ft
Length: 41.4ft
Gross Weight: 11,775lb
Maximum level speed at sea level: 411mph
Maximum level speed at 30,000ft: 446mph
Rate of climb at sea level: 2,155ft/min
Ceiling: 43,000ft
Cruise Range at normal load: 530 miles
Armament: Four 20mm cannon in nose

Gloster Meteor F Mk.I

Note, only 20 Mk Is were built.

Meteor III
Statistics (most with Derwent IV engines)
Engine: Two Derwent I or Derwent IV engines
Thrust: 2,000lb (Derwent I) or 2,400lb (Derwent IV)
Span: 43ft
Length: 41.4ft
Gross Weight: 13,342lb
Maximum level speed at sea level: 486mph
Maximum level speed at 30,000ft: 493mph
Rate of climb at sea level: 3,980ft/ min
Ceiling: 46,000ft
Cruise Range at normal load: 504 miles
Armament: Four 20mm cannon in nose and two 1,000lb bombs or sixteen 90lb rocket projectiles under the wings

Gloster Meteor F Mk.III

Bell P-59
Only the first twenty of the P-59A order were actually completed as P-59As. Serials were 44-22609/22628. Most of these P-59As were powered by a pair of 1650 lb. s.t. General Electric J31-GE-3 turbojets, although the last few were powered by uprated 2000 lb. st. J31-GE-5 turbojets. The J31-GE-5-powered P-59A had a maximum speed of 413 mph at 30,000 feet and 380 mph at 5000 feet. Range on internal fuel was 240 miles, and range with two 125-Imp. gall. drop tanks was 520 miles. An altitude of 10,000 feet could be reached in 3.2 minutes, and 20,000 feet in 7.4 minutes. Weights were 7950 pounds empty, 10,822 pounds loaded, 12,700 pounds maximum. Dimensions were wingspan 45 feet 6 inches, length 38 feet 10 inches, height 12 feet 4 inches, and wing area 385.8 square feet. Armament consisted of one 37-mm cannon and three 0.50-inch machine guns, all mounted in the nose. In addition, two 1000-pound bombs or eight 60-pound rockets could be carried on underwing racks.

Bell P-59 Airacomet


General characteristics

• Crew: one
• Length: 38 ft 10 in (11.84 m)
• Wingspan: 45 ft 6 in (13.87 m)
• Height: 12 ft 4 in (3.76 m)
• Wing area: 386 sq ft (35.86 m²)
• Empty weight: 8,165 lb (3,704 kg)
• Loaded weight: 11,040 lb (5,008 kg)
• Max. takeoff weight: 13,700 lb (6,214 kg)
• Powerplant: 2 × General Electric J31-GE-5 turbojets, 2,000 lbf (8.9 kN) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: 413 mph (359 knots, 665 km/h) at 30,000 ft (9,140 m)
• Cruise speed: 375 mph (326 knots, 604 km/h)
• Range: 375 mi (326 nm, 604 km)
• Service ceiling: 46,200 ft (14,080 m)
• Climb to 30,000 ft (9,140 m): 15 min 30 s

Armament

• Guns:
  • 1x 37 mm cannon
  • 3x .50 cal (12.7 mm) machine guns
• Rockets: 8× 60 lb (30 kg) rockets
• Bombs: 2,000 lb (910 kg) bombs

Bell P-59 Airacomet - Wikipedia

 

[Zyzygie]

Interesting?
The Meteor at 415 mph was as fast as the Bell P-59

Were the Bell P-59 engines reasonably reliable?

The Bell P59 has some problems, but engine reliability doesn't seem to be remarkable either way:

"...The XP-59A would be powered by two General Electric I-A, centrifugal turbojets with a statutory thrust of 1,250 lbs. On September 12, 1942, the first XP-59A was sent to Muroc Army Air Field in California for testing where it was flown for the first time on October 2, 1942 by Robert Stanley, Bell's chief test pilot. Flight evaluation uncovered a multitude of problems as the XP-59A tended to yaw and sway. Other problems were poor engine response and insufficient lateral stability during rolls..."

General Electric I-A - Wikipedia

 

[Macandy]

The one Allied fighter the Luftwaffe specificaly warned its 262 pilots to respect was the Tempest V. It was very fast, had excellent acceleration, good firepower and was very agile even at high speed.
The RAF tested the Tempest V against the Meteor, the Meteor could best the Tempest with ease.

262? pffft!
If jumped, and the a Meteor always had the advantage of altitude, an attempt to rapidly accelerate away has a good chance of causing a flame out...it dies.
it can't turn for toffees, so if it tries to mix it with a plane that can best the supremely agile tempest...it dies.
and the much vaunted 30mm guns! Slow firing things with short barrels and a low muzzle velocity, basically little more than a 30mm mortar. allied pilots often had no problem simply dodging the lumbering rounds As they came in on the slow, arcing lobbed trajectory. Meanwhile, the meteor packed 4 fast firing and very effective 20mm cannon.

and finally, the pilots......

You could put an average pilot in a Meteor and he was good to go.
the 262? It was a pig avd a handfull even for the best pilots the Luftwaffe fitted them with. Average pilots had a very short life in a 262.

the 262 was 'so good', the Russians briefly toyed with the idea of copying them, but decided they were a pig and designed something better.

 

[GrauGeist]

Post #607...

Where did all that nonsense come from??

Pilots dodging cannon rounds traveling over 1,750 feet per second?

The Meteor being "jumped"? Aside from strafing Axis airfields and destroying V-1s, the closest it ever came to combat was when a flight of Ar234s bombed 616 sqd's airfield.

The 262 was anything but a "pig", it was dangerous, one the the heaviest armed aircraft of the war and pilots who flew it (both Axis and Allied) had high praise of it's flight characteristics.

As far as other countries using the Me262, it saw service with the Czech Air Force as the Avia-99 and the Soviets did toy with the idea of producing the Me262 as the Su-9, Su-11 and Su-13, but they had difficulties reproducing the 004 and didn't have adequate enough engines to replace the 004.

Realistically, jet technology was advancing fast enough even by war's end, that the 262's replacement was in the works. Post war, much newer types were well advanced over the Me262, Meteor and P-80...

 

[Dimlee]

the Russians briefly toyed with the idea of copying them, but decided they were a pig and designed something better.

This "brief toying" continued for almost 2 years. Production was planned on two factories and it was cancelled only because Alexander Yakovlev has managed to persuade Stalin that Me 262 project was a waste of resources. Mr.Yakovlev was not just a Stalin's favourite at that time and one of the main decision-makers in the aircraft industry but also the designer himself with at least one jet fighter prototype ready to tests and in fierce competition with Mikoyan.

 

[GrauGeist]

This "brief toying" continued for almost 2 years.

Didn't the Su-13 project continue through 1948?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The one Allied fighter the Luftwaffe specificaly warned its 262 pilots to respect was the Tempest V. It was very fast, had excellent acceleration, good firepower and was very agile even at high speed.
The RAF tested the Tempest V against the Meteor, the Meteor could best the Tempest with ease.

262? pffft!
If jumped, and the a Meteor always had the advantage of altitude, an attempt to rapidly accelerate away has a good chance of causing a flame out...it dies.
it can't turn for toffees, so if it tries to mix it with a plane that can best the supremely agile tempest...it dies.
and the much vaunted 30mm guns! Slow firing things with short barrels and a low muzzle velocity, basically little more than a 30mm mortar. allied pilots often had no problem simply dodging the lumbering rounds As they came in on the slow, arcing lobbed trajectory. Meanwhile, the meteor packed 4 fast firing and very effective 20mm cannon.

and finally, the pilots......

You could put an average pilot in a Meteor and he was good to go.
the 262? It was a pig avd a handfull even for the best pilots the Luftwaffe fitted them with. Average pilots had a very short life in a 262.

the 262 was 'so good', the Russians briefly toyed with the idea of copying them, but decided they were a pig and designed something better.

The late Eric "Winkle" Brown was a test pilot from Great Britain who had many stories to tell. In his time he flew almost 500 aircraft and went down in history as the most decorated pilot in Royal Navy history. Among the planes, he flew many of them were captured Luftwaffe aircraft and the learned many of their secrets.

Eric Brown considered the Me-262 to the most formidable fighter of WWII, with its speed and performance, unlike any other plane. Flying in a captured Me-262 he had nothing but praise for the advanced jet except for one thing, the unreliability of the engines.



So please, before you rant, do a little research and substantiate your gibberish because after your post I feel you're acting like a pigeon trying to play chess...

 

[Dimlee]

Didn't the Su-13 project continue through 1948?

Yes, but I mean their work with original Me 262

 

[GrauGeist]

Yes, but I mean their work with original Me 262

Ahh...ok.
To be honest, it's been a while since reading up on late/post war Soviet jet development, so I wasn't completely sure.

 

[fastmongrel]

Never mind the planes what about the pilots. In a Meteor the pilot would be very experienced with say a thousand hours total flight time and 100 hours in a Meteor under his belt versus a guy who did much of his training in a glider and is running on a mix of romantic fascist bullcrap and fear of Russian reprisals.

 

[GrauGeist]

If you take it into context from that angle, then the Me262 must have had some merit as a "pilot's plane", since most of the pilots lacked proper schooling in twin engined jet aircraft...

 

[wuzak]

Never mind the planes what about the pilots. In a Meteor the pilot would be very experienced with say a thousand hours total flight time and 100 hours in a Meteor under his belt versus a guy who did much of his training in a glider and is running on a mix of romantic fascist bullcrap and fear of Russian reprisals.

Weren't the pilots that flew Me 262s very experienced experten, at leas early in the Me 262's career?

 

[GrauGeist]

Weren't the pilots that flew Me 262s very experienced experten, at leas early in the Me 262's career?

Some were early on, but they were also drawing from pilots who had twin engined experience, like bomber and transport pilots and eventually, anyone they could get their hands on.

One of the Me262 aces was an Unteroffizier - basically a senior Corporal and there was even a Gefreiter (basically a PFC) that was a successful pilot.

 

[Thos9]

Time. It would have taken more time to produce and test it and to get it right. Also pressurized cockpit was deleted as was ejection seat. Simplify and win time.

Not time. The pacing item was production turbojet availability. Airframe simplification saved no time. Cost, maybe

 

[Snautzer01]

No time in developing the plane. Not production.

 

[Zyzygie]

Not time. The pacing item was production turbojet availability. Airframe simplification saved no time. Cost, maybe

Agreed:
"...Galland said that persistent allied attacks on Axis fuel supplies also hindered Me 262 operations. Toward the end of the war, Me 262s were often towed to the end of the runway by draft horses in order to conserve fuel. In addition, many airframes sat idle waiting for engines that never arrived."

"Although it was the first by a considerable margin, the Me 262 was not the best jet of its era. Britain's Gloster Meteor, which used more reliable centrifugal-flow turbojet engines, joined the Royal Air Force in 1944. The first practical U.S. jet fighter, the P-80 Shooting Star, reached Europe by May 1945, but saw no combat in World War II..."
The Messerschmitt Me 262 Jet Fighter | Defense Media Network