10 Allied planes that sealed Nazi Germany's fate

[Jerry W. Loper]

Suppose that high ranking German military officers are asked shortly after the war, what 10 Russian and Western Allied planes contributed most to the Third Reich's downfall, and suppose the first 3 planes mentioned are the Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmovik, the B-17 Flying Fortress, and the Avro Lancaster. What are the other 7 planes? P.S. You don't have to accept the first 3 planes make the list; knock 'em off if you think they don't belong.

 

[tomo pauk]

Only combat planes should be in the list, or the trainers and transports count in too?

 

[Jerry W. Loper]

Only combat planes should be in the list, or the trainers and transports count in too?

Let's leave transports and trainers out of this one, though I realize in real life they were indispensable.

 

[tomo pauk]

In no particular order (the 'other' 7 planes):
Short Sunderland
P-51
Hurricane
Spitfire
Yak-1
P-40
Mosquito

 

[michaelmaltby]

B-24 Liberator - closed the Atlantic gap.
P-40 - widely, widely supplied to every Commonwealth country, + China at a time when there wasn't enough of anything British built to go around
B-29 - purpose built to haul the A-bomb
Lancaster - carried more total tonnage to Germany than any other Allied bomber and yet executed some very precise missions
PBY Catalina - great range and thus provided several key "sightings"
Fairey Swordfish - first successful torpedo attack at Toranto took the Italian fleet out of the Med and disabled the Bismarck
C-47 - YOU CANNOT remove this AC - dropping paratroops is a combat role
Harvard trainer - YOU CANNOT remove this AC = training fighter pilots is a combat role

MM

 

[GregP]

In no particular order, I'd pick the Yak-3, La-5, Il-2, Spitfire, P-51, P-47, B-24, Halifax, B-17, and Lancaster.

The Hurricane could easily be in there, but its importance diminished as the war went on. The P-38 could also easily be in there, but at the expense of which one? Once its teething issues were fixed, it was transferred to the PTO to eliminate another logistics chain in Europe for a fighter. It makes the list for the Japanese.

Though important, I did not select the C-47 or the AT-6 because they aeren't first-line combat aircraft. They are in a support role and are indispensible, but I seriously doubt the Germans would identify them as a cause of defeast. WE might, but not German military officers.

 

[herman1rg]

The Hurricane could easily be in there, but its importance diminished as the war went on.

But surely with the Hurricane shooting down more enemy aircraft during the Battle of Britain than all others combined (including anti-aircraft guns) This would make it very important to the tactical victory at that time that delayed and eventually led to the cancellation of the invasion The United Kingdom.

So I think it should be included in the list.

 

[Jenisch]

The main British and Soviet combat planes from 1939 to 1941 decided the war. But to be frank, I think that the Soviets by themselfs could already defeat Germany.

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... But to be frank, I think that the Soviets by themselfs could already defeat Germany."

Yes, maybe, sometime around 1948 after the Great German defeat in the Urals .... but that's "what-if" science fiction your clinging to, my friend Jenisch

"... I did not select the C-47 or the AT-6 because they aeren't first-line combat aircraft. They are in a support role and are indispensible, but I seriously doubt teh Germans would identify them as a cause of defeast."

I don't know ... I'm betting that more than one German General wished he had a few hundred C-47s at Stalingrad .... And Tante Ju, their own workhorse, bailed Germany out of several "kettles" when the army was encircled and had to break out.

But hey, its your call GregP

MM

 

[tomo pauk]

But surely with the Hurricane shooting down more enemy aircraft during the Battle of Britain than all others combined (including anti-aircraft guns) This would make it very important to the tactical victory at that time that delayed and eventually led to the cancellation of the invasion The United Kingdom.

So I think it should be included in the list.

Agreed.
Hurricane, as a part of the integrated air defense of the UK, could be easily the most important fighter plane ever.

 

[wuzak]

B-29 - purpose built to haul the A-bomb

Well, that's just incorrect! They had to be modified to carry the A-bombs.

 

[davebender]

Yak and IL2 should probably be at top of the list. Built in huge numbers and operated in the decisive war theater.

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... They had to be modified to carry the A-bombs."

OK - B-29 - the bomber that delivered the A bomb.

Can you buy that ...?

MM

 

[davebender]

So were He-177 and Ju-290. None of these A bomb modifications had any impact on WWII in Europe.

 

[CobberKane]

The question was: what planes would the GERMANS nominate, so the B 29 was a non-player anyway
To make the list I would suggest an aircraft would have to have had a profound effect either in a decisive battle, or lacking that, over a prolonged period. The Hurricane would appear to be a no-brainier, although it has been argued that the Brits could not have won the BoB without the less numerous but more potent Spitfire either. If that's so, then Spit might usurp the Hurricane on the basis of it's continued utility for the entirety of the war.
Liberator for sure - if the U boats had not been shut down D-day would never had happened.
Il-2 for the long term damage it did to the Wermacht
P-51 for air superiority over occupied Europe.
All the Yaks for providing the USSR with a fighter from day one that at least had the potential to develop into something to match the LW. I don't see any cause to divide this line of fighters into separate models.
Finally, how about the Typhoon? The profound effect of fighter bombers on German ground forces post D-day was only fully recognised after the war. Of course the P-47 was a standout here too, but I believe the Tiiffie edged it on workload.

 

[norab]

The P-47 Thunderbolt, besides it's exploits versus the Luftwaffe in the air

They destroyed over 8,000 aircraft on the ground, 9,000 locomotives, 6,000 tanks armored vehicles, 68,000 vehicles, and 86,000 rolling stock. They only comparable number I could find for either the P-51 or P-38 is the P-51 destroyed over 4,000 aircraft on the ground during the war

 

[Glider]

I like Cobbers thinking.
From the German point of view in no particular order

1 P51 )
2 B17 ) these two had to go together
3 Spitfire
4 Lancaster
5 B24 mainly for the Atlantic patrols
6 Catalina again for Atlantic Patrols
7 Mosquito for PR/Nightfighter and anti shipping strikes
8 Typhoon )
9 P47 ) these three for their GA work
10 IL 2 )

 

[pinsog]

P39 helped hold the line in Russian service. Which was more important to the Russians: the P39 or one of their own fighters?

 

[davparlr]

Well, Goring voted for the P-51. I suspect many Germans would agree. Seeing the P-51, the first fighter to appear over Germany, at low altitude and strafing anything that moved, must have been ominous and frightening to many Germans. I cannot conceive any German of admitting the Russians had anything that led to their defeat, most likely blaming the Western front from applying the forces necessary to win in the East, rightly or wrongly.

I would throw my vote with Gilder.

 

[GregP]

How many combat sorties did the Typhoon fly in the ETO? I've never seen that number. I have the number for the P-47.

I doubt the German high command regarded the Hurricane very highly. They were likely under the impression, from their fighter pilots in the BOB, that it was "meat on the table" for a Bf 109. I didn't think it was supposed to be what WE thought, I thought it was supposed to be what we think the German officers would say. Most of the ones alive and functioning at the end of the war weren't even officers in the BOB or were very junior. The Germans replaced a LOT of officers during the course of the war.