10 Allied planes that sealed Nazi Germany's fate

Don't forget that there never was a Luftwaffe pilot who was shot down by Hurricanes...they were always, only ever, shot down solely by Spitfires.

Agree to the point about German high command perspective so they'd plump for the Spitfire and try to forget about the poor old hunch-backed Hurricane.

hurricanes were still in service at the end of the too

Once the P-51's came on board as a bomber escort the Germans knew they would be under attack 24 hours a day. The British would hammer at night and the Americans now had a scenario that would allow a tolerable amount of losses of bomber crews and planes in the daytime. Germany was forced into deciding if they were going to build more nimble interceptors to deal with the Mustangs or faster climbing heavier armed fighters that could effectively attack the bombers. In effect, they knew they really had no choice. They couldn't let the Allies destroy their factories and cities so they went with the heavier arms to try and kill bombers.

Even though the Germans produced some incredible planes thereafter, they never really solved this problem. There were just too many P-51's,B-17's, B-24's and Lancaster's over their cities and industry. What's more, after the invasion, the ever improving Spitfires (plus other British aircraft) and American fighters were taking it to the Germans as the Allies advanced across from the coast. This also in turn allowed the Allies to take some excellent airplanes such as the P-47s and P-38s and Misquitos and Beaufighters (etc..) and adapt them to any number of ground attack and maritime roles.

None of this happened all at once, but over time it allowed the Allies to maximize the potential of their aircraft in any number of ways while the Germans were forced more and more to build a certain type of aircraft to somehow stem the incessant day and night bombing campaign. Once the Allies found the right formula they went with it. If that happens TO you in a war, it usually means you lose if you can't force some sort of change.

1.C-47
2.Mustang
3.B-24/17
4.Lancaster
5.P-40
6.Hurricane
7.Spitfire
8.IL-2
9.Petlyakov Pe-2
10.Yak

1. Hurricane
2. Spitfire

Without these two aircraft, Germany may have won the Battle of Britain, possibly forcing a peace with the UK. Played mainstay roles in almost every theatre of operations of the war.

3. B-24

Without the Liberator, the Atlantic gap would have remained open. A lesser bomber but a better weapon of war (higher bombloads, longer range, lower loss rates [eventaully]) than the Flying Fortress.

4. Bristol Beaufighter

Gave the UK its first effective night-fighter, eventually denying the night sky to Germany. Also provided the most effective naval strike aircraft of the war for the RAF/Costal Command

5. Avro Lancaster

Carried more than 65% of Bomber Command's total bomb tonnage during the war.

6. P-51B/C/D

Provided the combination of speed, maneouverability, range and pilot-friendliness that all long-range escorts before had lacked.

7. de Haviland Mosquito

The best multi-role aircraft on the allied side. Worked as a night-fighter, fighter bomber, recon, target marker, naval strike and dedicated bomber aircraft.

8. Il-2

Possibly caused more damage to German motorised transport and organic support than any other aerial weapon system.

9. Yak-7/3/9

Provided a fighter family capable of bridging the qualitative gap to German S/E types on the Eastern front.

10. Pe-2

The workhorse of Soviet frontal aviation strength during WW2. Immensly tough, survivable and capable in a multitude of roles.

pinsog said:

P39 helped hold the line in Russian service. Which was more important to the Russians: the P39 or one of their own fighters?

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Yes it has to be considered

I don't know why this plane was so successful as a Fighter on the Eastern front. But as mentioned I think 3 of the top 5 aces from Russia came from P39's

Maybe the Russians knew how to use it, because we sure didn't.

buffnut453 said:

Don't forget that there never was a Luftwaffe pilot who was shot down by Hurricanes...they were always, only ever, shot down solely by Spitfires.

Agree to the point about German high command perspective so they'd plump for the Spitfire and try to forget about the poor old hunch-backed Hurricane.

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For sure the LW pilots had blinkers on regarding the Hurricane, but the facts speak for themselves. I don't know if the BoB could have been won without Spitfires, but it certainly couldn't have been won without Hurricanes.
Greg, I seem to recall that the Typhoon flew more GA missions than the P 47, but recollection is all. Maybe some else has the figures. I wouldn't like to pick one over the other in regards to effectiveness.

Hi Stug,

I see you're not a P-51 fan. The B-24 / B-17 might have had a tough time without them. I think maybe daylight bombing would have ceased without the P-51. They might have been as effective at night ... and might not have been. Another what if ....

GregP said:

Hi Stug,

I see you're not a P-51 fan. The B-24 / B-17 might have had a tough time without them. I think maybe daylight bombing would have ceased without the P-51. They might have been as effective at night ... and might not have been. Another what if ....

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He ranked the P-51 at No. 2. Right after the c-47.

GregP said:

I think maybe daylight bombing would have ceased without the P-51.

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No P-51: P-38 and P-47.

You can not seperate the Hurricane and Spitfire in terms of the Battle of Britain. Without either one Fighter Command is done for,it's as simple as that.

On 1st July 1940 Fighter Command had 640 serviceable aircraft of all types,Spitfires,Hurricanes,Blenheims and Defiants. There were 348 Hurricanes and 200 Spitfires,we can safely discount the 100 or so Blenheims and Defiants as their impact on the forthcoming battle would be,politely,minimal. These numbers are 218 Hurricanes and 92 Spitfires for 11 Group,which was about to bear the brunt of the battle.

So my list has both of them on with the P-51 filling the next eight spaces

I've said it elsewhere recently but the figures are easy to read. In 1944 Luftwaffe losses were 9,768 in the west,2,406 in the east. That's conservative figures. Groehler's are nearly three times as many,but the ratio is almost identical. The Luftwaffe was destroyed in the skies,and on the fields,of western Europe. It was destroyed largely by the P-51.

Cheers

Steve

The P-51 was instrumental in winning a vital phase of the war, but it would never had been in a position to do so if other aircraft had not previously been equally instrumental in winning other equally vital phases. And it's worth remembering that the Mustangs period of ascendancy was barely longer than that of the Hurricane.

If the B-17 should be (and I think it should, along with B-24) rated as one of the top 10 basic instruments for the defeat of Germany, the Mustang has to be ranked as a 'co-equal'. The Luftwaffe had basically fought the 8th and 9th AF BC to a standstill pre P-51B, then was essentially defeated over Germany by the Mustang prior to D-Day.

The C-47. The Lancaster, the Hurricane and Spit and Il-2. I struggle picking only two of a Lancaster, B-17 and B-24 so I dropped Mosquito.

norab said:

The P-47 Thunderbolt, besides it's exploits versus the Luftwaffe in the air

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"They destroyed over 8,000 aircraft on the ground, 9,000 locomotives, 6,000 tanks armored vehicles, 68,000 vehicles, and 86,000 rolling stock. They only comparable number I could find for either the P-51 or P-38 is the P-51 destroyed over 4,000 aircraft on the ground during the war"

This statement is amazing in that every claim ranges from false to bovine fecal matter. Where in the world did you find this feckless prose?

CobberKane said:

The question was: what plane would the GERMANS nominate....

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Goering did that succinctly CK..the Spitfire.

Jenisch said:

From GregP "I think maybe daylight bombing would have ceased without the P-51."

From Jenisch; No P-51: P-38 and P-47.

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The 8th AF started preparations to begin night bombing transition in November 1944. The first P-38 group - 55th FG had began ops and the second (20th) began late November. The first Mustang operations began in December 1943.The P-47 prevented heavy losses over Holland and France. The Germans owned the sky over Germany.

Illustrated Point
The P-38's destroyed 10 LW fighters during Big Week with two operational FG. The Mustang destroyed 64.5 with two operational FG. The P-47 destroyed 78 with 11 Operational FG's.

From January 1 through June 30, the P-51B destroyed 1061, P-38 destroyed 178 with the same amount of P-38's. All air victory credits. The Mustang destroyed far more aircraft on the ground than the P-47 and P-38 combined (plus Spit, Hurricane and Typhoon lumped in).

The tactical issues for USSAF were a.) the P-47 escort ensured protection only as far as Dummer Lake to Frankfort... which was not very interesting relative to critical strategic targets such as aircraft engine, ball bearings, synthetic fuels, etc.. b.) the LW was able to withdraw major attacks to the point where the P-47s had to turn back and then punish the 8th AF to the point where US planners recognized that politically the US could not absorb such losses on a continuing basis - as incurred between August 1943 and October 1943, and c.) The LW could conserve strength prior to D-Day.

The P-47 was very important in 1943, demonstrating that escort fighters worked, but range limited the historical impact of the Jug

The P-38 had just a little more range with external tanks as the Mustang had with all internal fuel so even it was limited to Berlin for radius, or Southern Austria for 15th AF during Big Week, and from that point forward the Mustan extended its footprint with the addition of the 85 gallon fuselage tank. Posnan, Stettin, Brux, Regensburg and Munich range targets all became available with Mustangs.

Had the Mustang not existed it is possible that by stripping ALL P-38 production from PTO, MTO and diverted to England, the 8th could have continued daylight ops, probably with much higher losses - but acceptable. Having said that, the P-38 over Germany was not nearly as effective in destruction of LW - air and ground - as the Mustang on a pro-rata basis.

Even in the MTO where P-38s were primary 12th and 15th AF escort fighter from November 1942 through May 1944, it was much less effective than the P-51 when all the 15th AF P--47s were replaced by Mustangs.

P-38 speculative, Mustang reality in the context of the defeat of Germany.

By the end of summer 1943 the Germans were on the retreat in the East, had been kicked out of Africa and the allies had landed in Italy. Italy had switched sides.

The Mustang became one of the finest fighters of the war, but it did so after the outcome was already decided.

Readie said:

Goering did that succinctly CK..the Spitfire.

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Actually, Goering said once he saw Mustangs over Berlin, he knew it was over. And this is one of his more sensible quotes.

GregP said:

Hi Stug,

I see you're not a P-51 fan. The B-24 / B-17 might have had a tough time without them. I think maybe daylight bombing would have ceased without the P-51. They might have been as effective at night ... and might not have been. Another what if ....

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I used the Mustang designation because it was used by the RAF and the USAAF (I know RAF didnt use P-40 designation, but I was lazy). Quantities produced use by various allied AF's were a big factor in my picks.

Hop said:

By the end of summer 1943 the Germans were on the retreat in the East, had been kicked out of Africa and the allies had landed in Italy. Italy had switched sides..

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At the end of the summer of 1943 the battle of Stalingrad is about to start. The outcome in the East is far from certain.

The allies were about to or had (depending what you call the end of summer) landed in Italy but again the outcome was not certain. Churchill's "soft underbelly" proved anything but and there was plenty of hard fighting ahead there. It was just going to be against the Germans without much Italian "help".

The only one of your three where a decision had been made was North Africa. That was a greater victory for the British and their interests in the Middle East than it was a defeat for Germany. Italy is another thing,the invasion of Sicily was probably the event which finally prompted the series of events that led to the armistice. A decisive defeat for them both it was nonetheless,I agree with you here.

The Luftwaffe was on the road to defeat in 1943 but it most certainly was not defeated. You could easily argue (as Williamson Murray does quite convincingly) that it had been on that road since 1938/9.

Cheers

Steve