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Mr drondog
1)Statistis can be mislaeding 20% or 30% or 40% for 2-3 missions .So what? Thousands new bomberswere on the way.
The 'so what' is that every mission that went as deep as Regensberg and Schweinfurt suffered those losse and the 8th had still not commenced a campaign against Leipzig area refineries, much less attacks on Berlin.
Secondly, while the US resources were great, the position of Spaatz and his dedication to Daylight Strategic bombing was tenuous - he had just fired Eaker and replaced him w/Doolittle to command the 8th AF. Churchill nearly persuaded Roosevelt to abandon daylight bombing and join the RAF at night. The mere fact that the 8th AF even experimented with the notion of re-training B-17 and B-24 crews for the night time role was a serious note that the losses were un supportable politically
2)As far as i know night bombing was rejected by the americans as ineffective against military targets.(But it was very effective against civil population as discovered by the british)
It was rejected in 1942, it was rejected again in late 1943, but had the Mustang not made deep penetrations feasible with acceptable (average 2%) losses, daylight bombing would have continued only against targets which were covered adequately by existing escorts.
3)Bf 109G6 ,Fw190A5-6 , wasn t not enough to be equal or near equal to their foes. Because of the numerical inferiority should offer some edge in flight performance as in 1941/42.
They were lethal against Allied bombers of all types in the daylight. Even the NJG me 110, 210 and 410 as as Ju 88 were formidable absent Allied escorts. Left un molested, the USAAF could not prosecute deep strikes without risking losing their entire force.
As to numerical inferiority, they (LuftFlotte Reich) always had Local superiority until 8th AF switched Thunderbolts for Mustangs.
4)German factories produced more aircrafts in 1944 than ever before and the limiting factor was,as before , fuel.Which was not enough even before the bombing of the production centers. So Doolitle campaign only accelerated the events helped by tactical errors by the Jagdwaffe.
It was sufficient enough to fuel the LW over the beach head at Normandy had the LW had adequate pilots. The training deficiencies were compounded by the awful losses suffered by the Luftwaffe between January and June, 1944.
5)Aerial superiority over Normandy would secured by the Alleis even without P51 . On D day LW flew 100 missions over the Normandy. Without the spring battles over Germany lets say
that would fly 2000 missions. Alleis flew 14000. Is there any point to further disgus?
Absolutely - the huge advantage the Allies had was COMPLETE control of the air to the point that the Wermacht was denied mobilty during daylight. The losses to shipping and logistical capability would been very serious to the Allies had the LW been capable of such force on June 6. There is no question that the Allies would have prevailed at great loss to both sides but the invasion itself would have been in dire peril.
Mr Glider
I firmly consider P51 overated. P51H even more.I consider its claimed performance totaly unrealistic
COlin
It does however make the Tempest an option, if the P51 hadn't been around.
Juha said:Hello
In a world without P-51B/C/D/K and before Tempest Mk V GB might have build more Spit Mk VIIIs and less Mk IXs and kept most of Mk VIIIs in ETO instead of sending them all to MTO or to Far East.. Spit Mk VIII had the range of 740mls with internal fuel vs that of Tempest Mk V's 760mls. And both had the option of 90 Imp gal in drop tank(s). That without late Mk VIII's rear fuselage tank. Spit Mk IX's range with internal fuel only was 420-434mls and 900-914mls with 90Impgal drop tank. Mustang Mk III had the range of 890 mls with internal fuel only and it could carry 125 Impgal in drop tanks with them its max range was 1445mls, so it still had clearly superior range but Spit Mk VIII had range for escort missions to Western Germany.
By comparison the Tempest without nose tank or long-range tanks, has no range. When the extra fuel is available it should have a little more than half that of the Mustang III fitted with two 62.5 gallon long-range tanks, but without the extra 71 gallon body tank.
Hi JuhaHello
Hello NZTyphoon
On Hurricane, without it FC might have for ex Gloster F5/34s which might well have been a better fighter but there would probably have been fewer of them. Spit and Hurri were not only options available to FC in late 30s
Juha
Are you working in US or Imperial gallons?Tempest V. The maximum internal fuel for the Tempest V that I could find is 162 gallons US.
Spitfire VIII. The maximum internal fuel for the Spitfire VIII is 144 gallons. I could fine no reference to a "rear" tank. If you have info on this, please let me know.
P-51B/D. The maximum internal fuel for the Mustang is 269 gallons. Some of this fuel must be burned off before combat for stability.
I have, on another thread, performed a rough analysis of American aircraft for the escort mission. Using some of that data, I calculated the following escort performance for a 400 mile mission, Western Germany.
Tempest V. Using the same fuel consumption as the P-51, about 66 gallons needed for 400 miles, the Tempest would have around 100 gallons of fuel for combat. At Normal Rated Thrust (NRT), this would be about 30 minutes fighting time. Decent.
Spitfire VIII. Using the same calculations the Spitfire would have about 64 gallons of fuel for combat, or about 30 minutes at NRT.
Mustang. I had previously calculated that the Mustang, on a 600 mile range mission, would have over an hour combat time at NRT. At 400 miles, combat time would be about an hour and a half, or three times the combat time of the other two fighters. I think this indicates the impact the P-51 had to long range escort and, just as importantly, long range interdiction. At 400 miles, it would take three Tempests or Spitfires to provide the same length Combat Air Patrol over a German airbase as one Mustang.
There is an interesting quote when the RAF compared the endurance and range of the Tempest to the Mustang III (P-51B)
Tempest V Performance Data
Hi Juha
Are you working in US or Imperial gallons?
From the Pilot's Notes for Spitfire VII/VIII, AP 1565 P N, Air Ministry December 1943: Fuel tanks = Top Tank - 47 Imperial Gallons; Bottom Tank - 49 Gallons; two wing tanks (13 gall)- 26 gallons = 122 gallons internal fuel plus drop tank of 30, 90, 170 gallons. There was never a "rear tank" fitted to the VII or VIII.
2650 rpm Weak Mixture
+4lb/sq.in Boost: 71 gal/hr
+2 lb/sq.in Boost: 66 gal/hr
0 lb/sq.in Boost: 60 gal/hr
-2 lb/sq.in Boost:53 gal/hr
2,400 rpm Weak Mixture
+4lb/sq.in Boost: 66 gal/hr
+2 lb/sq.in Boost:61 gal/hr
0 lb/sq.in Boost: 55 gal/hr
-2 lb/sq.in Boost:49 gal/hr
2,200 rpm Weak Mixture
+4lb/sq.in Boost: 61 gal/hr
+2 lb/sq.in Boost:57 gal/hr
0 lb/sq.in Boost: 51 gal/hr
-2 lb/sq.in Boost:45 gal/hr
Air miles per Imp gallon = 4 at 260 mph at 15,000 ft at 2,650 rpm
AMPG = 7 at 170 mph (recommended I.A.S) at 15,000 ft at 1,800 rpm
Pilot's Notes for Tempest V AP 2458c, May 1944: Fuel = Main tank-76 gal; 2 inter-spar tanks (28 gal each)- 56 gal; wing tank port forward wing root (after first 100 Tempest Vs) - 30 gal= 162 Imp gal plus 2 45 gal drop tanks
recommended speed for maximum range = 210 mph I.A.S reducing to 190 mph I.A.S at 20,000 feet
Air MPG = 5.6 at 2,300 rpm
Good question. In references on the internet it is often hard to determine which measure is being used. Certainly for the P-51 it is US gallons. I also believe the Spitfire was in US gallons, which corresponds to your data, as I tried to verify with fuel weight from test sheets. Apparently, according to your info, I used imperial gallons and need to adjust my calculations.
Thanks for the great info, I have very poor British data. I'll look and see how close I came with my assumptions. Would you happen to have the data for normal rated power for the Tempest and Spitfire?
Some late model Mk IX Spitfires had 154 or162 gallons of internal fuel. The two normal 48 and 37 gallon tanks, a 33 or 41 gallon rear tank, and two 18 gallon tanks in the wings.