1940: ideal fighter for the Luftwaffe?

[DonL]

I think part of the problem is bad translation of the cooling system and how it works, many people using the term "evaporative" when they shouldn't. The plane did not use conventional radiators and did use panels in the wings. I think ( and could be wrong here) that it rather depends on what proportion of the coolant was allowed to turn to steam/vapor. I believe the Merlin at times had some of the coolant vaporize and had a "separator" that sent a line of liquid and vapor to the header tank where the vapor condensed back to a liquid. The total amount of vapor was very small. RR had had their fill of steam cooling with the Goshawk engine. RR and Curtiss and a few others had used "surface radiators" on race planes to reduce drag. This was successful but expensive in initial construction and in maintenance.
The German system ( to me anyway) seems to be a combination. A bit more liquid is allowed to vaporize (but nowhere near all), the vapor is separated out and sent to the surface radiators/condensers ( or what ever you want to call them) where it condenses back to a liquid. It is collected and sent back to the header tank where it is mixed with the liquid coolant returned from the engine. (clarification wanted?)

In some race planes a true "evaporative" system was used. The plane was fitted with a large coolant tank and after the liquid reached the boiling point the "vapor" was allowed to escape to the air. With enough coolant the plane can fly long enough for record runs.
The Fw 187 and He 100 did not vent the vapor ( at least not on purpose) and flight times were not restricted by the coolant supply as in a "true" evaporative system.

I would note that the presence of surface cooling panels is NOT a sure indicator of what kind of cooling system a plane has. I would also note that some low performance ( and a few high performance planes) of the 1920s and 30s did not have oil coolers. they simply mounted the oil tank with one or more surfaces exposed to the air stream.

As long as I have understand you correct I would agree.

Some comments from me.
From all research I have done and through Dietmar Hermans Book about the FW 187 (also the pictures in it) the coolimg system of the He 100 (Oberflächenverdampfungskühlung) and the experimental system at the FW 187 V5 (Dampfheißkühlung) were fundamental different.
The He 100 has a true evaporative cooling were the steam/water was running through the wings at water lines in the wings and the wing was the surface of cooling!

As I understand the FW 187 V5 had a high pressure water cooling very simular as you have described from RR and Curtiss with the goal to have very low drag conventional cooler/radiator. Also as I have understand it was to optimistic but from the system it was nothing else as Junkers and DB introduced with the DB 605, 603, Jumo 213 and partly with the DB 601E and Jumo 211F a high pressure water cooling to reduce drag of the cooler.
To me that has nothing to do with an evaporative cooling through surfaces.

Anyway this has nothing to do with our discussion here in this thread and it is totaly unimportant.
All datas and estimations of the FW 187, that were published from Focker Wulf are basing on the FW 187 V4 which flew with a conventional cooling system and Jumo 210G. Also the V4 was at Rechlin and had testflights against the Bf 110 and Bf 109 and it was a full armed version .
Most to all datas and later estimations from Focker Wulf were from the datas of this Prototype (FW 187 V4).
This includes speed-, climb- and range- performances.

I've consulted several different sites, all agree there was a Fw 187 V6, not one makes the remark it never flew, ( which I find strange for a aircraft you say never flew) 3 agree it had the DB 601, and 2 note that that the V6 had the evaporative cooling system.
Many sites out there were just copies of the Wiki site, these were not.

But I have a feeling no matter what I come up with online, i'm never going to meet you requirement of "primary sources".

You can ask Shortround6, as I have understand from an early thread, he has also the book from Dietmar Herman which is basing on primary sources. So he can confirm that the FW 187 V6 never flew and in reality it was the V5 of which all internet sites are talking!
Also I don't understand why do you put primary sources to quotes?
Mr. Hermans book base on original documents from Focker Wulf which are to me primary sources, do you can confirm this of your citated internet sites?

 

[davebender]

The specification requires a superior German fighter aircraft that could be operational during 1940. IMO the Fw-187 is the only certain way to achieve that lofty goal. RLM must restore full funding for the DB601 program NLT 1937 to insure an adequate supply of engines. Everything else can proceed as happened historically.

 

[DonL]

I agree with you Dave.

But also if every produced Bf 110C from 1939 to 1940 would be a Fw 187 "B" (with DB 601) BoF and BoB would be fundamental different because a FW 187 would have a totaly other impact at this fights and this impact would be very mighty and powerfull.

As I written before a FW 187 "B" would had a speed performance around 610 km/h and a climb performance near the Bf 109E with much more range compare to the Bf 109. Also the FW 187 was very good at the sticks at high speed maneuvers, at this part it was clearly better then the Bf 109. Also it could match with the turn and roll performance of the Bf 109E!

 

[davebender]

I consider that a bad idea.

By mid 1940 most Me-110s went to night fighter units. A significant number also went to recon units. Plus a few experimenting with the 3cm Mk101 cannon for CAS and light maritime strike. If the Me-110 is cancelled then Germany must build something else for those roles.

If RLM sticks to the original 1935 DB601 engine production plan there will be plenty of engines to go around. So why not build 100 or so Fw-187s per month in addition to the Me-110? Fw-187 would go to heavy day fighter units. Me-110 would keep its other historical roles. Without the day fighter mission there should be enough Me-110s to completely fill night fighter units so they don't need to piddle around with aircraft such as the Me-109D and Do-217.

 

[The Basket]

The Luftwaffe already had some of the best fighters in the world...Ideal fighter for the Germans in 1940 was called the Bf 109 Emil and it was ideal.

With the 190 and Friedrich in the wings....sorted.

A weakness of the 187 was it has 2 engines. Engines cost the most and so the 187 would have been going on twice as costly as a Emil. Not to mention extra maintaninance. And the 110 was chosen anyway.

 

[tyrodtom]

Even with access to "primary sources" it still seems to be a mystery why the Fw 187 was refused for production .

 

[DonL]

I consider that a bad idea.

By mid 1940 most Me-110s went to night fighter units. A significant number also went to recon units. Plus a few experimenting with the 3cm Mk101 cannon for CAS and light maritime strike. If the Me-110 is cancelled then Germany must build something else for those roles.

If RLM sticks to the original 1935 DB601 engine production plan there will be plenty of engines to go around. So why not build 100 or so Fw-187s per month in addition to the Me-110? Fw-187 would go to heavy day fighter units. Me-110 would keep its other historical roles. Without the day fighter mission there should be enough Me-110s to completely fill night fighter units so they don't need to piddle around with aircraft such as the Me-109D and Do-217.

Here I disagree and have a total other opinion.

The FW 187 twoseater could play nearly every role of the Bf 110.
It was the much better dayfighter and recon aircraft, could play the destroyer part and also I think till the Lichtenstein radar (introduction 1942)a twoseater could to the nightfighter role because without radar the direction comes from the ground from the Himmelbett station.

Longrange dayfighter: FW 187
recon a/c : FW 187
destroyer: FW 187
heavy destroyer: Ju 88
Night fighter with radar: Ju 88 and Do 215 B5 Kauz III (with DB 601A,N,E perhaps DB 605)
Maritim aircraft: Ju 88, He 111, Do 217
Medium Bomber: Ju 88, Do 217

In reality the Ju 88 was a very good night fighter, heavy destroyer and maritim aircraft but as medium bomber the Do 217 was better with more range and a better payload also the Do 217 was a very good maritim aircraft.
The nightfighter role of the Bf 110 with radar could be filled with the Do 215 B5 Kauz III with stronger engines, till the Ju 88 c and later G versions were fully developed. There are experts which say the Do 215 with better engine performance would be a better night fighter then the Bf 110 because of the much better endurance, more room for the crew and equipment and the speed was ok, not far away from the Bf 110 nightfighter and equal to the earlier Ju 88 nightfighter

All other roles of the Bf 110 could be done from the FW 187 with much more and better performance. The Bf 110 was obsolete from the beginning of it's carreer, because the LW had better a/c's (icluding FW 187)to fill the roles of the Bf 110!
With a better planning and more strength of purpose the He 111 would be out of production 1940 and there would be capacities for more Ju 88!

Sorry but I see no role or important missions for Bf 110!

And the 110 was chosen anyway.

Yes and that was a very big mistake and the question of the thread was: 1940: ideal fighter for the Luftwaffe?
With the reality of 1940 and the requirements of BoB, Malta and the Mediterranean the FW 187 would be the ideal fighter for the Luftwaffe because of it's speed, range, arnament and climb performance.


Edit:

Even with access to "primary sources" it still seems to be a mystery why the Fw 187 was refused for production .

It were political and personal reasons especially from Göring who loved the Bf 110 and was convinced of Willy Messerschmitt as designer. Udet had estimated the FW 187 different from Göring and had given orders to built the FW 187 but was overuled from Göring and Kesselring!

 

[The Basket]

I disagree.

The Bf 110 was chosen because it was chosen in 1936 and not 2012. I wish I was that good.

 

[DonL]

What's your point?

There are more then enough books out to read, why decissions were made and it is proven that personal relations at/with the RLM were sometimes and between 1935-1940 more then sometimes more important then performance of the a/c.

I don't think that sarcasm is helping your argument. And by the way the final decission of producing the Bf 110 was not 1936!

 

[davebender]

1941 engine prices.
27,970 RM. DB601.
.....55,940 RM for two engines.
45,000 to 65,000 RM for one BMW 801 engine.

Fw-190A was not "in the wings" during 1940. The BMW 801 engine was still crude, unreliable and cost as much as two DB601 engines. The situation doesn't improve much until 1942 and then the BMW 801 engine requires expensive high octane fuel. How much more power would the DB601E engine produce if Daimler-Benz were allowed to take advantage of C3 fuel?

You could make an argument for the Me-109F but that gives the Luftwaffe only one "iron in the fire" during 1939, 1940 and 1941. Put the Fw-187 into mass production and the Luftwaffe has a superior day fighter aircraft from 1939 onward.

 

[The Basket]

The point and it's a good point is the Fw 187 was not produced.

No sarcasm just plain fact. I am not arguing because there is nothing left to say. You can win the argument with all the literature and stats you want but it doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

You know what would be cool....A jet!!! I could go for one of those....faster than a 187 too.

 

[DonL]

Again.
You should read post Nr. 1!
It is a what if thread and by the way the 9 FW 187 were produced till 1939 and so the FW 187 fit the requirements of the thread!

As you said plain and simpel and no Jet was in the air at that time.

 

[Ralf von Schneer]

Hi!

A very interesting thread,my opinion is that the He-100D series which used a conventional radiator could have been the ultimate fighter in 1940/1941.

 

[tomo pauk]

Again.
You should read post Nr. 1!
It is a what if thread and by the way the 9 FW 187 were produced till 1939 and so the FW 187 fit the requirements of the thread!

As you said plain and simpel and no Jet was in the air at that time.

Maybe some other people should read the 1st post too? It says, among other conditions, that a plane to be considered here is with single engine. So the Fw-187 is out, since it's a twin engined plane.

Also, looking beyond the He-100 is also encouraged int the 1st post here.

 

[davebender]

There's only one German Uber engine which has any chance to be in mass production during 1940 and that's a slim hope. Do you want to pin all hope on 1940 production of the DB603 engine? Otherwise a twin engine is the only way to achieve a significant performance gain during 1940. Or you could slide the production date to 1941 which is entirely plausible for the DB603 engine.

 

[Shortround6]

Building a lowerer drag airframe than the 109E is not that difficult and does NOT require an UBER engine. Both the Italians and Japanese did it a bit further down the road and Messerschmidt did it themselves with the "F" model.

A plane with adequate firepower instead of the odd ball combination of the 109E, and another 10 minutes of combat time might not be an uber fighter but it might shift the balance scales a bit, it may also provide a more suitable airframe for 1941-42 with the later DB 601 and 605 engines and introduction of the MG 131 and MG 151 guns.

 

[Jerry W. Loper]

In the summer of 1940, the Me-109 was one of the three best fighters in the world. (The Japanese Mitsubishi A6M Zero did not become operational until the fall of 1940.) Trouble is, the other two best fighters were just across the channel. They were short-ranged, too, but they got to play defense instead of offense.

 

[Shortround6]

The Problem for the Luftwaffe was that the "E" had about peaked. It needed the "F" to stay ( get ahead?) competitive. The Problem for the British was that the Hurricane had also (for the most part) peaked. The advantage for the British was that the Spitfire had NOT peaked. A good as an improvement as the "F" was it wasn't enough to base a future "all round fighter" on. It was too small.

 

[Ralf von Schneer]

Answers like 'produce the He-100' or the 'Bf-109F' are wholeheartedly discouraged

By the way why?
When in 1939 12 He-100D-1's where produced (armed production version) and no Bf-109F was in existence?

 

[riacrato]

The Problem for the Luftwaffe was that the "E" had about peaked. It needed the "F" to stay ( get ahead?) competitive. The Problem for the British was that the Hurricane had also (for the most part) peaked. The advantage for the British was that the Spitfire had NOT peaked. A good as an improvement as the "F" was it wasn't enough to base a future "all round fighter" on. It was too small.

In general I agree, though I'd say it peaked at the F-4. And if it wasn't for the early problems of the DB605 one might argue it peaked at the G-2. The problems of the later Bf 109s are imo as much linked to the cell as they are to the engine. There's just so much you could do with a 1300 hp engine that is optimized for a (in meters) 6000-6500ish altitude. The latter Italian designs are interesting and neat, maybe better in some ways than what the contemporary Bf 109 had to offer (maneuverability and firepower) but their performance figures are not better and in some cases worse. That shows to me, that besides the unnecessary drag that was definetly there on mid-war Bf 109s (tailwheel, bulges etc.), as long as the engine isn't up to late DB605A specs or even DB605 AS / ASM / D level, not much is to be gained by introducing a new airframe for that engine family and given the logistical effort, the historical progression might even be the most sensible one (except for the aerodynamic refinements which should and could have been introduced much earlier).

To be more competetive than historically, both a larger airframe and a more powerful engine is needed. The airframe was the Fw 190 and the engine should have been the DB603, with 20/20 hindsight.