1940: ideal fighter for the Luftwaffe?

[davebender]

I agree.

You cannot achieve significantly better performance when using a single DB601A engine. It's possible to increase combat radius (i.e. more internal fuel) and visibility (i.e. bubble canopy) but that will decrease aerial performance and increase manufacturing cost. Adding more or heavier weapons will also decrease aerial performance.

If you want an Uber 1940 fighter aircraft then you need more then 1,100 total hp.

 

[Shortround6]

The "F" prototype was about 20-30mph than the "E" using the same engine wasn't it? The Ki 61 was as fast or faster than a 109E wasn't it, despite the bigger wing/airframe that resulted in an empty weight as great or greater than the 109Es loaded weight? Granted climb wasn't as good.

The 109E-3 also had a truly strange armament set up. I actually like the 20mm MG/FF. good punch for the weight even if they run out of ammo real quick ( but so did every body else's 20mm guns in 1940) 7 1/2 to 8 seconds firing time? It is the 1000rpg for the cowl guns that boggle the mind. Darn close to 60 seconds of firing time or 19-20 3 second bursts. 16-18 of them AFTER the 20mm guns are silent. Now maybe the front line units didn't fill the ammo tanks all the way but the 109 was hauling around 60lbs (over 1% of it's total gross weight) of ammo it didn't need to. Work harder at getting a MG 17 to fire though the prop and and give each of the 3 guns 500rounds. You might save weight (not much) but fire power is up 50-55% after the 20mm guns go dry and you still can shoot longer than the British planes. The likelihood of having fuel left after getting into firing position 1 1/2 dozen times is pretty slim.

Stick a bigger wing on it an mount a pair of MG 17s either in the wing root or out by the 20mm guns. Give each (all four) gun 300 rounds and you break even on the armament weight even if you need a bigger airframe.

 

[davebender]

If we want an airframe or engine to enter service faster than historical then we must identify a program which was underfunded.

Me-109 and Ju-88 plus Jumo 211 engine were the best funded Luftwaffe programs during the 1930s. You cannot push development faster then what happened historically. If Messerschmitt were able to get the Me-109F into mass production during 1940 it would have happened historically.

 

[The Basket]

Talking twins about the 187.

The Me 210 was also about late 1930s and that was all singing all dancing and far more than a Fw 187 could ever be.

That's where the money and expectations went.

 

[davebender]

Zerstorer. An aircraft mediocre in many roles and really good for nothing. Is that what we want?

Fw-187 should be built as a single seat day fighter.
Me-210 / Me-410 should be built as a light bomber.
If built at all the Me-110 should be a dedicated night fighter aicraft.

 

[The Basket]

In 1940, the Bf 110 had very good performance and certainly could match a Hurricane for speed.

Remember it's numbers and you need hundreds....remember all the big names that fought in the battle Of Britain the prototypes were flying 1936 or before.

The timeline of anything that flew in 1938 is looking at 1942 before it makes an impact.

 

[Shortround6]

Fw-187 should be built as a single seat day fighter.

And if you stay to historic availability it has the same problem in 1940 that the 109E had. The 20mm guns run out of ammo in 7-8 seconds. You have speed, you have climb, you have range, you have toothless wonder after 8 seconds. ( not quite you still have the four 7.9mm MGs.) Except you are using two engines to haul four machine guns instead of one engine to haul two mgs. Not a real big advantage. When the better guns show up the Single seat 187 looks a lot better.

 

[The Basket]

A twin which is extremely limited in its role is not an easy sell. 2 109F or 1 Fw 187?

In my opinion...the 109 was the best fighter and history has proven that.

 

[DonL]

Historical at 1939 only a twin seater Fw 187 makes sense! Here a I agree with shortround6, because you need the second crew to fed the drums and also the Fw 187 would/must be a multi role a/c as I have described on detail at post 67, so you need the twin seater. There is no reason for a Bf 110 (post 67) and realy no reason for this Bf 210/410 crap. All this roles could be filled as I described at post 67 with much better a/c's for this roles.

Also I don't see were a twin seater Fw 187 is limited in it's use?!

The Bf 109 F had proved that it was one of the best fighter till autum 1942, as the Spit IX was introduced, after that the whole Bf 109 series was only average with no upgrqade potential. That's one of the fundemental differents between the Bf 109 and Fw 187, the upgrade potential.

 

[cimmex]

what upgrade potential do you expect at the Fw 187, the space in the fuselage is as limited as in the Bf 109 series. IMO this is why the Ta 154 was built which was no upgrade of the Fw187 but a new aircraft.

Cimmex

 

[The Basket]

thread is for 1940 not 1942. Then other factors play agreed. No fighter in mass production and mass operational service in 1940 is going to get anywhere near a Spit 9 and that includes the Fw 187.

Spit 1 or Emil or Hurricane or P-40 or D520 or Zero is toast against the 9. I would certainly agree the 187 would have made an excellent B17 hunter and survived better than a Me 410 but that's a fair stretch for a prototype that has to be airborne years before events transpire . In my view, even What ifs have to be realistic. Otherwise the best fighter for the Germans in 1940 is the MiG -15

 

[DonL]

what upgrade potential do you expect at the Fw 187, the space in the fuselage is as limited as in the Bf 109 series. IMO this is why the Ta 154 was built which was no upgrade of the Fw187 but a new aircraft.

Cimmex

FW 187 "D0" destroyer and nightfighter full calculated project from FW 1942 with plans to the RLM/ordered by RLM but canceled 1943

weight: 7000kg loaded; 2 x DB 605A (2 x 1475PS), wing span 30m², payload to 8200kg (bombs, external fuel tanks, external weapons), internal fuel capacity 1300 liter; fuselage 880 Liter (increased to the A0) wings 210liter each; armor 167 kg; 4 x MG151/20 with 250 bullets - rigidly to the front, 2 x MG131 with 450 bullets - rigidly to the back, range 1200 km to 1.330 km,
Calculated with 6650 kg:
max speed at 7100m 685km/h, max speed near ground 547km/h, climb rate near ground 18m/s, climb time 0,9 min/1,0 km, 1,7 min/2,0 km, 3,6 min/4,0 km, 5,7 min/6,0 km .

FW 187 "X" single seater clean fighter/long range fighter full calculated project from FW 1942 with plans to the RLM/ordered by RLM but canceled 1943
weight: 6350kg loaded, 2 x DB 605A( 2x 1475PS), wing span 30m², internal fuel 1300 liter, 4 x MG151/20
Calculated with 6050 kg:
max speed at 7100m 725km/h, climb rate near ground 21,2 m/s, climb time 10,6 min/10 km

Source: Focke-Wulf FW 187: An Illustrated History

That's the upgrade potential from real existing plans from FW and they are much more impressive then the Bf 109G!

thread is for 1940 not 1942.

Agreed but no Bf 109F was in mass production or at service at 1940 too! And the Fw 187 "B" (2 x Db 601Aa) would be better then the Bf 109E!

No fighter in mass production and mass operational service in 1940 is going to get anywhere near a Spit 9 and that includes the Fw 187.

With no development agreed, but with normal development a FW 187 "C" with 2 x DB 601E engines (same as the Bf 109F4) would be a real match for the spit IX, with 2 x DB 605 it would be even better and the DB 605 was introduced late 1942.

In my view, even What ifs have to be realistic.

Agreed but all a/c's have a continuous development and we know today when a new engine was introduced and fitted to the given a/c's.
And I'm refering to real plans and estimations based on 9 "prototypes" datas from Focker Wulf engineers with later engines and developed models.

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

This are datas original from FW and modern estimations.

 

[tomo pauk]

By the way why?
When in 1939 12 He-100D-1's where produced (armed production version) and no Bf-109F was in existence?
View attachment 207070

Why? I will not say 'because I've started this thread'
The He-100 (and the Fw-187, too, and this one does not fit in this thread in the 1st place) has many threads covering it in this forum, so listing it here would unlikely bring anything new. Maybe some slugging between the partisans and opponents of the plane? Sure enough, the revelation of the new data grants a thread that would cover these, dealing exclusively with the He-100.
Of course, the Bf-109F was in existence in 1940, btw. So, skipping the known birds might get some fresh stuff here, with those two out of the picture.

 

[davebender]

How many Me-109F were produced during 1940?

 

[DonL]

There is only the He 112 left available Tomo.

I have said more then one post in this thread something about the He 112 and that it had much in common with the Ki 61.
Also that to my opinion it had much more performance potential with the DB 601!

Realy I can't see that the FW 190 would be that good with a DB 601A (1000-1100PS) and I have my serious doubts, that german engine development can be accelerated. At 1939-40 the germans worked hard on the development of a water pressure cooling for their engines (both Junkers and DB). The introduction of the water pressure cooling was the significant reason of the performance win between 1940 till 1941 with the DB 601E at the end of the development and 1350PS. But I have doubts that it can be introduced earlier!

 

[tomo pauk]

How many Me-109F were produced during 1940?

I'm sure that Bf-109 buffs will provide us with a credible answer.

There is only the He 112 available Tomo.

Maybe my message did not went through. A 'designer' can pick an engine, weapon layout, airframe layout, and then 'design' himself some fine fighter. Also, the 'stae of the art' remains - no laminar flow wings, no fan cooled radial engines, etc. - those are out for 1940.
The thread is not about the planes that were around in 1940, that were available for the LW, but how would an ideal fighter looked like if you were in charge.

I have said more then one post in this thread something about the He 112 and that it had much in common with the Ki 61.
Also that to my opinion it had much more performance potential with the DB 601!

Fair enough. I like the Ki-61 myself (it did have some relations with the He-100?), and a plane of such a layout would not be very much on the mark for the LW of the 1940. My changes would include the 8 LMG weapon set, and maybe the canopy from the He-112.

Realy I can't see that the FW 190 would be that good with a DB 601A (1000-1100PS) and I have my serious doubts, that german engine development can be accelerated. At 1939-40 the germans worked hard on the development of a water pressure cooling for there engines (both Junkers and DB). The introduction of the water pressure cooling was the significant reason of the performance win between 1940 till 1941 with DB 601E at the end of the development and 1350PS. But I have doubts that it can be introduced earlier!

The fighter uses the engines historically available. That means DB-601A, or anything Germans were producing during winter of 1939/40 until the end of 1940. My pick is, obviously, the DB-601A. A wing-mounted weapon battery should ensure easy re-engining with other engines available, maybe with the Jumo 211 for export versions?

 

[davebender]

That's being rather short sighted.

Development of the belt fed MG151 began during 1935. At least one pre-production weapon was used during the Spanish Civil War as it was captured in a shot down aircraft. The MG151 will reach mass production status only about a year after the Fw-187.

Why design the Fw-187 fuselage for a second crew member who will be out of a job in one year? It would be less trouble to design a larger magazine for the MG/FF cannon. Or else put six of these relatively lightweight weapons in the Fw-187 nose and fire them one pair at a time. During 1940 the interim weapons get replaced by four MG151. Which get modified to MG151/20 during 1941 or 1942.

 

[tomo pauk]

The repeated appearance of the Fw-187 in the thread covering the single engined fighters is beyond me.

 

[davebender]

Are we allowed to continue RLM funding for the DB603 engine program during 1937 to 1940 rather then cancelling funding as happened historically?

Are we allowed to fund the Genshagen DB601 engine factory @ 50 million RM as originally planned rather then scaling it back to 20 million RM as RLM did historically?

 

[Shortround6]

And of course the Germans learned absolutely NOTHING from developing the DB 601 series from 1937 to 1940 that they applied to the DB 603 when they resumed development?

See: http://www.enginehistory.org/German/DB/Chart01.jpg

For an idea of how the DB 600-605 progressed.

It is safe to assume that the airframe designers, while not given full details, were kept somewhat in the know about expected developments/progress. An airplane expected to go into first service in 1940 could expect higher powered engines in the near future. The Problem with the 109 was that 1200-1500hp engines of 1941-42 were only in the dream stage when it was designed. It had to make do with 700hp engines for several years until the promised 1000hp engines showed up.