1942 and on: RAF fields 'proper' P-38s - consequences?

[FLYBOYJ]

Wow flyboy...for all your experience about the P38 you know the plane had flutter issues from the start.

Especially approaching .68 Mach in their dive tests. Pilots died because of the the tail failing and breaking.
In fact there were two issues and hard to separate, Compressibility and Tail Flutter.
The Tail Flittering got solved first after a lot of Wind-tunnel Testing.
Adding Filets around the Wing, Cockpit and Engine Nacelles.
They never solved the compressibility issue.

You're confusing the flutter and compressibility issues. The flutter occured because of compressibility. The AAF mandated balance weights on the elevator. They never really worked according to Kelly Johnson. This has been well documented in numerous books by Brodie and Ethel

The British rejected the early Lightings because of this issue...there was a big huge legal fight about it!
Then Pearl Harbor happened and US wanted the planes.

The British bought castrated lightnings, and were going to reject them anyway. In essence it kept the production line opened long enough to bridge several AAF purchases and ensure program cashflow. Again this was mentioned by Brodie and Cadin in their books.

If you cut the P38 in half and made two planes.

No, you had a fuselage boom and a wing!!!!

You may have had a way to prolong Compressibility.
But you had 4 large protrusions...two engines one in each fuselage, another fuselage between the engines and a big Tail.
That is a lot to push through the air...best the Lightning got was around .74 Mach...
No matter what the Lockheed Engineers did with that configuration.
it was not going any faster and considering there were other flight performance issues to deal with.

Lockheed engineers were the first in dealing with a phenomena that many knew was there but never encountered, the P-38 was the first aircraft to deal with this and later the P-47 had similar issues

What made the Lighting effective was its watering can guns and cannon all in the nose.
It had enough performance to win a fair share of battles with a competent pilot.
One on one could not dive fast enough safely and separate enough distant in an emergency.
This is key in any combat situation air, ground or water.

Please provide some reference for that because that sounds like a figment of your imagination.

The Lightning was just not as versatile as the single engine planes.

100% BS - look at the various variants and roles it served, that was one of the things that made it one of the best combat aircraft of the war!!!!

After the war the P38 was completely retired from US and other air forces.
Bottom line, It was not economical to keep around.

Agree there to a point. There were several post war operators.

On a contract in Marietta Ga was interviewing Designers for Lockheed in 1977/78/79
Some of those guys worked on the C122 Connie and used the wind tunnel tests from the P38.
They used a similar tail configuration off of the Lightning.

I'll throw the BS flag up there!!! I worked at Lockheed in Burbank from 1980-1990 and knew many engineers that were around during the war years. There might have been some transplants that went to Georgia but "GELAC" was mainly made up of local folks hired during the 1950. Wind tunnel testing for the Connie was done in California and the tail configuration had absolutely nothing to do with the P-38, it was adopted to keep the tail height at a minimum so the aircraft could fit in many of the standardized hangars of the day!!!! BTW most if not all the archived data was at the library located on Valhala Drive next to plant A1 at that time. So tell us Dan, who were these folks????

 

[FLYBOYJ]

So in between those speeds the MiG 15 was dangerous...correct..?
Yes another discussion.

No - you just had to know how to fly it!!

 

[wuzak]

The British bought castrated lightnings, and were going to reject them anyway. In essence it kept the production line opened long enough to bridge several AAF purchases and ensure program cashflow. Again this was mentioned by Brodie and Cadin in their books.

Yes, the Lightning I did not have the performance required, or expected, of it.

But the RAF did not cancel the complete order, instead the bulk of the order was to be completed as the Lightning II, which was fitted with handed engines and turbochargers.

Then, of course, Pearl Harbor happened and the USAAF took over the order.

 

[wuzak]

If you cut the P38 in half and made two planes.
You may have had a way to prolong Compressibility.
But you had 4 large protrusions...two engines one in each fuselage, another fuselage between the engines and a big Tail.
That is a lot to push through the air...best the Lightning got was around .74 Mach...
No matter what the Lockheed Engineers did with that configuration.
it was not going any faster and considering there were other flight performance issues to deal with.

The compressibility issue as due to the thickness and profile of the wing.

If the Lockheed engineers had the time, money and manpower to revise the wing they could have improved its performance greatly. But, of course, winning the war took priority and production of existing types could not be interrupted for lengthy periods.

What made the Lighting effective was its watering can guns and cannon all in the nose.
It had enough performance to win a fair share of battles with a competent pilot.
One on one could not dive fast enough safely and separate enough distant in an emergency.
This is key in any combat situation air, ground or water.

I'm of the opinion that acceleration in the dive was more important than the ultimate diving speed.

The P-47 was regarded as a good diver, but the Spitfire not so much. The Spitfire's ultimate limiting mach number was greater than the P-47's, but it did not accelerate nearly as well.

The P-38 accelerated quickly in a dive, causing it to quickly get to the speed where compressibility was a problem. So limits were put on the P-38 for diving, which were increased when dive brakes were fitted.

Still, I believe the acceleration the P-38 had in a dive would be handy in trying to evade the enemy.

The Lightning was just not as versatile as the single engine planes.
Which were just as fast more maneuverable and did not have as many cranky issues.
It was a unique plane but got to remember design and testing started in 1937-1938.
And war had not started in Ernest yet.
Yet the P36 already was already fighting in China, later in France.
Even the later model F7F Tigercat had similar flutter and compressibility issues.

I may have a different definition of "versatile" than you do.

Not many single engine fighters of WW2 could be a fighter one day and carry 2 x 2,000lb bombs the next.

 

[wuzak]

The compressibility issue was never solved?

No.

Just had work-arounds to mitigate the problems it caused.

 

[Dan Fahey]

You're confusing the flutter and compressibility issues. The flutter occured because of compressibility. The AAF mandated balance weights on the elevator. They never really worked according to Kelly Johnson. This has been well documented in numerous books by Brodie and Ethel

The British bought castrated lightnings, and were going to reject them anyway. In essence it kept the production line opened long enough to bridge several AAF purchases and ensure program cashflow. Again this was mentioned by Brodie and Cadin in their books.

No, you had a fuselage boom and a wing!!!!

Lockheed engineers were the first in dealing with a phenomena that many knew was there but never encountered, the P-38 was the first aircraft to deal with this and later the P-47 had similar issues
Please provide some reference for that because that sounds like a figment of your imagination.

100% BS - look at the various variants and roles it served, that was one of the things that made it one of the best combat aircraft of the war!!!!

Agree there to a point. There were several post war operators.
I'll throw the BS flag up there!!! I worked at Lockheed in Burbank from 1980-1990 and knew many engineers that were around during the war years. There might have been some transplants that went to Georgia but "GELAC" was mainly made up of local folks hired during the 1950. Wind tunnel testing for the Connie was done in California and the tail configuration had absolutely nothing to do with the P-38, it was adopted to keep the tail height at a minimum so the aircraft could fit in many of the standardized hangars of the day!!!! BTW most if not all the archived data was at the library located on Valhala Drive next to plant A1 at that time. So tell us Dan, who were these folks????

Not providing references to satiate your responses.
Most what I posted is correct.
If you have have more information just provide it without your snarky responses.

I am here to fill the holes from people who know more than I do.
Sorting the Propaganda and misinformation information published over the decades
A lot of aviation history does not make sense.
There are so many books which one has the Correct Information.
You had writers that Caiden that really slathered misinformation.
Compared to a Dan Ford and Cookie Sewell that get into the weeds what really happened.
Then there are books like Robert Shaw's Advanced Combat Maneuvering.

As for my experience..
Supported programs at McDonnell Douglas Florida, Page Aircraft building Saudi luxury aircraft,
Gulfstream Aircraft in Savannah, Modification Centers in Clemson SC, Piper in Daytona, Cessna in Tampa.
Martin Marietta in Orlando, mostly missile programs and Aircraft programs in Baltimore
Lockheed Martin C-130 C-140 Stretch, C5A CADAM development and C17 RFP.

Aircraft Simulation industry that was predominantly throughout central Florida.
Supported Hamilton Standard and Sikorsky West Palm Beach including Star Wars program. Lot of NASTRAN Development.
Was on site when they blew a hole in a 10 foot slab of steel.
Earlier won Stock Eliminator points meet at Moroso (1983)

Supported teams on AWACs (with the Circle Bar W company ) in Linthicum MD, COMSAT in Germantown MD, Balloon Communication program in Columbia MD.
Wave Propagation Communications with US Army our of Marietta Ga using Barium Clouds to propagate a AM wave experimenting for Combat condition in Atlanta.
When in South Florida formed a Corporate Soccer League and Played Goalie.
Mororola, ABB/Westinghouse, Racal Milgo, Rodime, Modcomp, Siemens, IBM, Florida Power and Light.
Personally tackled the President of Siemens Engineering stopping an attack in the goal area.
I have interviewed and personally hired more than 3000 engineers and know their stories.

Remember being in Huntsville where I met and talked to Verner Von Braun and many of his associate engineers in Meetings.
Worked on dozens military programs with Sperry, Burroughs, Univac, CSC, Computer Products.
Including clandestine communication programs for Radio Free Europe and fascinating algorithm development for Ship Fire Control.
Got deep into the deposition, etching and manufacture of Microprocessors and the Tooling that went with it.
Then there was Marine Industry with US Coast Guard, CIA - Ft Lauderdale, DEA who caught the CIA in Ft Lauderdale running Drugs.
Oh and that Airplane i saw take from from CIA airways that got shot down over Nicaragua .
Chris Craft Military Patrol Boats for US Cost Guard and Navy that all of a suddenly ended up in the hands of the Israelis.
Had a good little bit of weapons systems and rack and stack development on US Destroyers and Frigates.
Even did manual Circuit Board design.

Then supported Nuke Power Plants at Grand Gulf, St Lucie, Turkey Point, Crystal River, Taft, Belafonte, TVA Chattanooga, Union Carbide Oak Ridge.
Even visited 3 Mile Island after the clean up.

My Grandfather worked for the National Geological Survey
He was the Scientist that selected Los Alamos for the Manhattan project.
I met many of his scientist friends as a kid at family events.
My Dad worked for NRL. Flew out of Bolling AFB then Andrew and later Pensacola.
Navy Connie called Sundowner that almost got shot down doing research around Japan.
Spent a lot of time with the Crew on weekends while Dad worked inside the Connie.
Witnessed an F-86 take off and crash in the river.

I have about 50 years in Engineering and IT... Started in Mechanical and Electrical Engineering
Have 50 years in Civilian and Combat Martial Arts and a good bit of weapons training.
Morning warm up is 50 sit ups, 75 Push ups and 50 BW Jump Squats and alternate days 70 Burpees.
The evening Martial Arts or the Gym getting ready to Ref Soccer for the Fall.
MSI Soccer Ref of the year 2017.

Can still chase down U19 men's teams on the Pitch and do that for three games a day.
Use to Ref as many at 12 games a weekend but cut that down.
Not too bad for a person 68 years old !

I own a IT and Engineering Business for more than 25 years.
Employed as many as 160 employees.
Now we are deep into Cyber Security and not just IT but Industry wide.
Hoping to employ 25 Engineers for an AFB reconstruction program in Florida
Aircraft history is only one area that information is sought.

What I give you comes from MY personal Experience and Study.
I will never have all the answers.
BUT I do not need to justify what I have learned.

Just want to know how a problem was solved.
What were the issues that had to be pushed through.
Who were the players.

No ego ... what was the result !

Got it !

D

 

[Dan Fahey]

The compressibility issue was never solved?

Not on the Lightning.
Engineers just prevented it from getting out of the high speed dive.
Otherwise it would nose over and break apart.

 

[fubar57]

What's a C-122 Connie? I could only find C-121 Constellation

 

[Kevin J]

Not providing references to satiate your responses.
Most what I posted is correct.
If you have have more information just provide it without your snarky responses.

I am here to fill the holes from people who know more than I do.
Sorting the Propaganda and misinformation information published over the decades
A lot of aviation history does not make sense.
There are so many books which one has the Correct Information.
You had writers that Caiden that really slathered misinformation.
Compared to a Dan Ford and Cookie Sewell that get into the weeds what really happened.
Then there are books like Robert Shaw's Advanced Combat Maneuvering.

As for my experience..
Supported programs at McDonnell Douglas Florida, Page Aircraft building Saudi luxury aircraft,
Gulfstream Aircraft in Savannah, Modification Centers in Clemson SC, Piper in Daytona, Cessna in Tampa.
Martin Marietta in Orlando, mostly missile programs and Aircraft programs in Baltimore
Lockheed Martin C-130 C-140 Stretch, C5A CADAM development and C17 RFP.

Aircraft Simulation industry that was predominantly throughout central Florida.
Supported Hamilton Standard and Sikorsky West Palm Beach including Star Wars program. Lot of NASTRAN Development.
Was on site when they blew a hole in a 10 foot slab of steel.
Earlier won Stock Eliminator points meet at Moroso (1983)

Supported teams on AWACs (with the Circle Bar W company ) in Linthicum MD, COMSAT in Germantown MD, Balloon Communication program in Columbia MD.
Wave Propagation Communications with US Army our of Marietta Ga using Barium Clouds to propagate a AM wave experimenting for Combat condition in Atlanta.
When in South Florida formed a Corporate Soccer League and Played Goalie.
Mororola, ABB/Westinghouse, Racal Milgo, Rodime, Modcomp, Siemens, IBM, Florida Power and Light.
Personally tackled the President of Siemens Engineering stopping an attack in the goal area.
I have interviewed and personally hired more than 3000 engineers and know their stories.

Remember being in Huntsville where I met and talked to Verner Von Braun and many of his associate engineers in Meetings.
Worked on dozens military programs with Sperry, Burroughs, Univac, CSC, Computer Products.
Including clandestine communication programs for Radio Free Europe and fascinating algorithm development for Ship Fire Control.
Got deep into the deposition, etching and manufacture of Microprocessors and the Tooling that went with it.
Then there was Marine Industry with US Coast Guard, CIA - Ft Lauderdale, DEA who caught the CIA in Ft Lauderdale running Drugs.
Oh and that Airplane i saw take from from CIA airways that got shot down over Nicaragua .
Chris Craft Military Patrol Boats for US Cost Guard and Navy that all of a suddenly ended up in the hands of the Israelis.
Had a good little bit of weapons systems and rack and stack development on US Destroyers and Frigates.
Even did manual Circuit Board design.

Then supported Nuke Power Plants at Grand Gulf, St Lucie, Turkey Point, Crystal River, Taft, Belafonte, TVA Chattanooga, Union Carbide Oak Ridge.
Even visited 3 Mile Island after the clean up.

My Grandfather worked for the National Geological Survey
He was the Scientist that selected Los Alamos for the Manhattan project.
I met many of his scientist friends as a kid at family events.
My Dad worked for NRL. Flew out of Bolling AFB then Andrew and later Pensacola.
Navy Connie called Sundowner that almost got shot down doing research around Japan.
Spent a lot of time with the Crew on weekends while Dad worked inside the Connie.
Witnessed an F-86 take off and crash in the river.

I have about 50 years in Engineering and IT... Started in Mechanical and Electrical Engineering
Have 50 years in Civilian and Combat Martial Arts and a good bit of weapons training.
Morning warm up is 50 sit ups, 75 Push ups and 50 BW Jump Squats and alternate days 70 Burpees.
The evening Martial Arts or the Gym getting ready to Ref Soccer for the Fall.
MSI Soccer Ref of the year 2017.

Can still chase down U19 men's teams on the Pitch and do that for three games a day.
Use to Ref as many at 12 games a weekend but cut that down.
Not too bad for a person 68 years old !

I own a IT and Engineering Business for more than 25 years.
Employed as many as 160 employees.
Now we are deep into Cyber Security and not just IT but Industry wide.
Hoping to employ 25 Engineers for an AFB reconstruction program in Florida
Aircraft history is only one area that information is sought.

What I give you comes from MY personal Experience and Study.
I will never have all the answers.
BUT I do not need to justify what I have learned.

Just want to know how a problem was solved.
What were the issues that had to be pushed through.
Who were the players.

No ego ... what was the result !

Got it !

D

You're right about one thing. Just because it's the official narrative doesn't mean it's true.

 

[Dan Fahey]

The compressibility issue as due to the thickness and profile of the wing.

If the Lockheed engineers had the time, money and manpower to revise the wing they could have improved its performance greatly. But, of course, winning the war took priority and production of existing types could not be interrupted for lengthy periods.

I'm of the opinion that acceleration in the dive was more important than the ultimate diving speed.
The P-47 was regarded as a good diver, but the Spitfire not so much.
The Spitfire's ultimate limiting mach number was greater than the P-47's, but it did not accelerate nearly as well.

The P-38 accelerated quickly in a dive, causing it to quickly get to the speed where compressibility was a problem.
So limits were put on the P-38 for diving, which were increased when dive brakes were fitted.

Still, I believe the acceleration the P-38 had in a dive would be handy in trying to evade the enemy.
I may have a different definition of "versatile" than you do.
Not many single engine fighters of WW2 could be a fighter one day and carry 2 x 2,000lb bombs the next.

Agree about the limited time and manpower..a war was going on and you fixed what you can and send the plane off to fight.
As for the quickness in dive..possible if the Lightning could roll quick enough in time, Boosted Ailerons helped.
Then again you are diving and moving quickly because the Enemy plane already has an energy advantage on you.
Or cut power and climb to force the Enemy to hopefully miss you and fly by.
All about creating a safe distance.

As for adding bombs good point but not going too far hauling 4000 lbs of bombs.
Then the plane becomes a vulnerable bomber.

Just was not as versatile as the Mustang or it would have had a life after WW2.

 

[fubar57]

Not really seeing the similarity between the P-38 and C-122 Connie tail section

 

[Dan Fahey]

What's a C-122 Connie? I could only find C-121 Constellation

Hey you got me..!
Born with Dyslexic Fingers !

 

[drgondog]

Not on the Lightning.
Engineers just prevented it from getting out of the high speed dive.
Otherwise it would nose over and break apart.

??? Engineers Enabled (not prevented) recovery from Compressibility dive by designing and installing the dive flap at 30% chord to move CP further aft.

Absent the dive flap, the CMac did contribute pitch down but there was enough control authority to prevent 'nose over' and 'breaking apart'

 

[fubar57]

That's what I thought hence my question

 

[drgondog]

Agree about the limited time and manpower..a war was going on and you fixed what you can and send the plane off to fight.

As for adding bombs good point but not going too far hauling 4000 lbs of bombs.
Then the plane becomes a vulnerable bomber.

But range acceptable for 99% of close air support missions, much longer with 1000 pound bomb on one pylon and 165 gallon tank on the other pylon.

Just was not as versatile as the Mustang or it would have had a life after WW2.

Post war decision to drop the P-38J/L from the active USAF inventory was economic. P-51D/K/H half the cost to operate and maintain. P-51H was superior Interceptor, P-82 better very long range escort and night fighter and Fighter bomber - if necessary.

But I don't understand your definition of 'versatile'?

P-38 - Long Range escort, Close Air Support, Interceptor, long range/high speed recon, night fighter, capable of horizontal formation bombing with accompanying Droop Snoot modified P-38, Air ambulance.

I guess I forgot all the additional roles the Mustang suitably achieved in comparison. What did I miss?

 

[fubar57]

That air ambulance version was spooky

 

[Shortround6]

The P-38 was a bit weird, It was an advanced, complex airplane compared to many other fighters. It was also just a bit earlier in timing to many of planes people compare it to.

Production totals at the end of 1943.

fighter.................planes built in 1943...............total number of planes of type.

P-38.............................2497.......................................4184
P-47.............................4428.......................................4946
Mustang....................1710.......................................2482
F4U..............................2293.......................................2466
F6F...............................2547.......................................2557

for all of 1942 and much of 1943 the P-38 was the only advanced fighter (better than a P-39/P-40/F4F) available in large numbers (it could take several months to get from the factory door to a combat airfield). This is one reason the P-38K went nowhere. The demand for P-38s was too high to take the hit to production for the change over.

The P-38 established a reputation for long range early, in part because of the 165 US gallon drop tanks, with the demonstrated ability to fly the Atlantic (in ferry not combat condition) it had longer legs than any other allied fighter in 1942. Combat radius on a B-17 escort mission would have been much less but they were sent off to Operation Torch before any track record could be established in the ETO (for good or bad) in 1942.
They had built over 900 P-38s and had thousands more on order before anybody even started cutting metal on a 2 stage Merlin powered P-51 let alone fly one.

building two single engine fighters for every P-38 sounds intriguing until you figure that you need twice the number of flight instruments, twice the number of radios, more guns (unless you are happy with fighters with three .50 cal guns) and most importantly, twice the number of pilots. If you can't train the P-38 pilots properly to handle the twin engine planes can you train hundreds more pilots in the same time period (or thousands more going into 1944?) to handle a small single engine turbo fighter?

 

[Shortround6]

Post war decision to drop the P-38J/L from the active USAF inventory was economic. P-51D/K/H half the cost to operate and maintain. P-51H was superior Interceptor, P-82 better very long range escort and night fighter and Fighter bomber - if necessary.

But I don't understand your definition of 'versatile'?

P-38 - Long Range escort, Close Air Support, Interceptor, long range/high speed recon, night fighter, capable of horizontal formation bombing with accompanying Droop Snoot modified P-38, Air ambulance.

I guess I forgot all the additional roles the Mustang suitably achieved in comparison. What did I miss?

And the P-38 was doing some of those missions (recon) up to a year before the P-47 showed up in combat. After being shuffled off to bomber missions it did do a few notable missions, that other fighters would have been hard pressed to do, If the missions were actually worthwhile is another subject but flying 600 miles to bomb Polesti in the summer of 1944 was a mission few other fighters could even attempt.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Not providing references to satiate your responses.
Most what I posted is correct.
If you have have more information just provide it without your snarky responses.

No pal, my references has been posted throughout this forum, you have continued to post half -truths and nonsense and been continually called on it

As for my experience..
Supported programs at McDonnell Douglas Florida, Page Aircraft building Saudi luxury aircraft,
Gulfstream Aircraft in Savannah, Modification Centers in Clemson SC, Piper in Daytona, Cessna in Tampa.
Martin Marietta in Orlando, mostly missile programs and Aircraft programs in Baltimore
Lockheed Martin C-130 C-140 Stretch, C5A CADAM development and C17 RFP.

Aircraft Simulation industry that was predominantly throughout central Florida.
Supported Hamilton Standard and Sikorsky West Palm Beach including Star Wars program. Lot of NASTRAN Development.
Was on site when they blew a hole in a 10 foot slab of steel.
Earlier won Stock Eliminator points meet at Moroso (1983)

Supported teams on AWACs (with the Circle Bar W company ) in Linthicum MD, COMSAT in Germantown MD, Balloon Communication program in Columbia MD.
Wave Propagation Communications with US Army our of Marietta Ga using Barium Clouds to propagate a AM wave experimenting for Combat condition in Atlanta.
When in South Florida formed a Corporate Soccer League and Played Goalie.
Mororola, ABB/Westinghouse, Racal Milgo, Rodime, Modcomp, Siemens, IBM, Florida Power and Light.
Personally tackled the President of Siemens Engineering stopping an attack in the goal area.
I have interviewed and personally hired more than 3000 engineers and know their stories.

Remember being in Huntsville where I met and talked to Verner Von Braun and many of his associate engineers in Meetings.
Worked on dozens military programs with Sperry, Burroughs, Univac, CSC, Computer Products.
Including clandestine communication programs for Radio Free Europe and fascinating algorithm development for Ship Fire Control.
Got deep into the deposition, etching and manufacture of Microprocessors and the Tooling that went with it.
Then there was Marine Industry with US Coast Guard, CIA - Ft Lauderdale, DEA who caught the CIA in Ft Lauderdale running Drugs.
Oh and that Airplane i saw take from from CIA airways that got shot down over Nicaragua .
Chris Craft Military Patrol Boats for US Cost Guard and Navy that all of a suddenly ended up in the hands of the Israelis.
Had a good little bit of weapons systems and rack and stack development on US Destroyers and Frigates.
Even did manual Circuit Board design.

Then supported Nuke Power Plants at Grand Gulf, St Lucie, Turkey Point, Crystal River, Taft, Belafonte, TVA Chattanooga, Union Carbide Oak Ridge.
Even visited 3 Mile Island after the clean up.

My Grandfather worked for the National Geological Survey
He was the Scientist that selected Los Alamos for the Manhattan project.
I met many of his scientist friends as a kid at family events.
My Dad worked for NRL. Flew out of Bolling AFB then Andrew and later Pensacola.
Navy Connie called Sundowner that almost got shot down doing research around Japan.
Spent a lot of time with the Crew on weekends while Dad worked inside the Connie.
Witnessed an F-86 take off and crash in the river.

I have about 50 years in Engineering and IT... Started in Mechanical and Electrical Engineering
Have 50 years in Civilian and Combat Martial Arts and a good bit of weapons training.
Morning warm up is 50 sit ups, 75 Push ups and 50 BW Jump Squats and alternate days 70 Burpees.
The evening Martial Arts or the Gym getting ready to Ref Soccer for the Fall.
MSI Soccer Ref of the year 2017.

Can still chase down U19 men's teams on the Pitch and do that for three games a day.
Use to Ref as many at 12 games a weekend but cut that down.
Not too bad for a person 68 years old !

I own a IT and Engineering Business for more than 25 years.
Employed as many as 160 employees.
Now we are deep into Cyber Security and not just IT but Industry wide.
Hoping to employ 25 Engineers for an AFB reconstruction program in Florida
Aircraft history is only one area that information is sought.

What I give you comes from MY personal Experience and Study.
I will never have all the answers.
BUT I do not need to justify what I have learned.

Just want to know how a problem was solved.
What were the issues that had to be pushed through.
Who were the players.

No ego ... what was the result !

Got it !

D

Dan - I'm not going to entertain the legend you think you are. You post a lot of nonsense and it really annoys many of our members. You've been called on it - govern yourself accordingly.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hey you got me..!
Born with Dyslexic Fingers !

Among other things....