1942 and on: RAF fields 'proper' P-38s - consequences?

[Kevin J]

The RAF simply doesn't need the Lightning in Europe in 1942 or any other date, and although it would've been useful for the RAAF in the Pacific from 1942 that would've required the entire P-38F, Lightning II contact, being allocated to the RAAF, preferably being preceded by the Lightning I for training purposes. Now that would have helped the RAAF immensely, but did they have the necessary number of pilots?

 

[Dan Fahey]

Well if you will recall the Mustang needed a whole new engine that was not an American design and then there was the problem of their tails coming off. So the P-51 had a lot more problems than most recall. The prototype flew in Oct. 1940, in 1942 it was rejected by the RAF and didn't equal the Lightning in escort duty until May of 1944. That's a long time to work out the bugs and get it to the frontline. Meanwhile the Luftwaffe was being decisively defeated and their best pilots being shot down by the undertrained pilots flying the P-38 and P-47.



I suggest that the logistics problems in the Med and Pacific were multiple times what they were in Britain. Imagine trying to fly out of a jungle island thousands of miles away from the closest flush toilet or how about from a sand dune in Africa. They managed in both of those theatres, so I believe they would have in Europe as well.



It more than helped. Their introduction saved the American daylight bombing effort. They were available and should have been used much earlier and would have saved many a bomber crew. It was a huge failure by the "Bomber will always get through" mentality of the US Army Air Corps.

Another failure was keeping them tied to the bombers in close escort. If they would have been let loose like the P-47 and P-51 from close escort earlier you would have seen some real carnage at Luftwaffe airfields.

As for stats, in Europe an enemy plane destroyed on the ground counted as a kill. In the Pacific it didn't. Many a German plane was caught on the ground after 1944.



People seem to forget about the cost of training a pilot. How many more pilots were lost due to their one engine being damaged? How many P-38 pilots were saved by having that second engine? Not to mention the planes themselves. How many twin engine P-38s flew again after having their engine repaired. thus saving the cost of building another plane transporting it to the front and having to train another pilot?

How many excellent pilots were lost? Bong came home on one engine I believe 3 times during his career.

Then you have to take into account the cost of building or retrofitting factories to build the Mustang compared to increasing the build rate of the Lightning. Add in the cost of R&R, retraining flight instructors and mechanics, retooling machine tools, switching to manufacturing a new tire design , retrofitting the tail so it didn't fall off, switching engines, etc. I don't think the P-51 was such a bargain when you include all the overhead that went into getting it into combat. The phrase "Penny wise, pound foolish" comes to mind.

Where do you get your information?
The P-51 Mustang was a well sorted out Fighter and had few problems right from the start.
It was a flexible platform able to accept Merlin's and Allison s.
What problems that did arise were quickly sorted out and not chronic like the Lightning.
As for engines the Allison was damn reliable however the Turbo was problematic in Combat.

The Brits never used the Lightning.
Yet loved the early Mustang and used them until the end of the war.
It was the best Medium to Low aircraft they had, especially P-51 A.
This is also all well documented

The Lightning prototype was rushed into production.
The Air Frame was complex and not designed for production.
You will read that in every history book about the plane.
First one crashed and took time to build another.

The Turbo was problematic until 1945.
The British gas with its high aromatics caused tuning fits.
American Gas and British gas at high altitudes caused the Lead to precipitate out blowing up the engine on boost.
The Fuels were fine for the supercharged engines but not the Turbocharged engines.

PTO it did fine because of the warmer Pacific temperatures.
However lost a lot of combat challenges to Japanese Aces.
Even both Top Lightning Aces were shot down by Japanese Aces.
They even struggled against the Axis aircraft.

Lightnings did not save the daylight Bombing effort.
That would be the Mustang....PERIOD !

As for how many lives were saved by having two engines.
Answer your own damn question..how many ??
Not many came home from combat on one engine.
In fact it would have been highly dangerous to lose an engine on a twin engine plane.
The asymmetric forces would cause the plane to lurch toward the good engine and spin out of control.
This is where a lot of Pilot training came in to be able to fly on one engine.

Now do it in a combat environment.
Lose an engine and correct the abrupt swing you still had zero maneuverability.
P 38 was a useful plane but in combat SA it was seen first.
It was not as agile, could not dive, did not have many distinctive flight characteristics to out fight any plane.
P 38 were a tough, time consuming planes to repair, just like the P-47.

By 1945 most of the flight and pilot issues were resolved.
That is great but much of the war had moved on too.

In the MTO, PTO and CBI its speed was more helpful and had less issues tuning for the climate.
This Reliability made the Lightning more successful.

However it still suffered from not being able to dive away with its mach limit issues.
Level Flight were faster than the Ki-43 and Zeke. They could stay with a Lightning in a Dive.
K-44, Ki-61, Ki-84, N1K1 were more competitive opponents and also took a good score of Lightnings.
Oh the Lightnings shot the hell out of the single and multi engine bombers but not the fighters.

The Mustang was actively in used in every TO from 1940 to 1945.
The most prolific was the P40 that served successfully in every TO.
In fact on the MTO pilots preferred the P40 over the P38.

 

[fubar57]

Where do you get your information? The Mustang was actively in used in every TO from 1940 to 1945.

The Mustang entered service in May '42.

 

[Kevin J]

The Mustang entered service in May '42.

Where do you get your information?
The P-51 Mustang was a well sorted out Fighter and had few problems right from the start.
It was a flexible platform able to accept Merlin's and Allison s.
What problems that did arise were quickly sorted out and not chronic like the Lightning.
As for engines the Allison was damn reliable however the Turbo was problematic in Combat.

The Brits never used the Lightning.
Yet loved the early Mustang and used them until the end of the war.
It was the best Medium to Low aircraft they had, especially P-51 A.
This is also all well documented

The Lightning prototype was rushed into production.
The Air Frame was complex and not designed for production.
You will read that in every history book about the plane.
First one crashed and took time to build another.

The Turbo was problematic until 1945.
The British gas with its high aromatics caused tuning fits.
American Gas and British gas at high altitudes caused the Lead to precipitate out blowing up the engine on boost.
The Fuels were fine for the supercharged engines but not the Turbocharged engines.

PTO it did fine because of the warmer Pacific temperatures.
However lost a lot of combat challenges to Japanese Aces.
Even both Top Lightning Aces were shot down by Japanese Aces.
They even struggled against the Axis aircraft.

Lightnings did not save the daylight Bombing effort.
That would be the Mustang....PERIOD !

As for how many lives were saved by having two engines.
Answer your own damn question..how many ??
Not many came home from combat on one engine.
In fact it would have been highly dangerous to lose an engine on a twin engine plane.
The asymmetric forces would cause the plane to lurch toward the good engine and spin out of control.
This is where a lot of Pilot training came in to be able to fly on one engine.

Now do it in a combat environment.
Lose an engine and correct the abrupt swing you still had zero maneuverability.
P 38 was a useful plane but in combat SA it was seen first.
It was not as agile, could not dive, did not have many distinctive flight characteristics to out fight any plane.
P 38 were a tough, time consuming planes to repair, just like the P-47.

By 1945 most of the flight and pilot issues were resolved.
That is great but much of the war had moved on too.

In the MTO, PTO and CBI its speed was more helpful and had less issues tuning for the climate.
This Reliability made the Lightning more successful.

However it still suffered from not being able to dive away with its mach limit issues.
Level Flight were faster than the Ki-43 and Zeke. They could stay with a Lightning in a Dive.
K-44, Ki-61, Ki-84, N1K1 were more competitive opponents and also took a good score of Lightnings.
Oh the Lightnings shot the hell out of the single and multi engine bombers but not the fighters.

The Mustang was actively in used in every TO from 1940 to 1945.
The most prolific was the P40 that served successfully in every TO.
In fact on the MTO pilots preferred the P40 over the P38.

The Lightning was a very advanced design for its day, so none of us should be surprised that it took so much time to fix all its faults and shortcomings. The Mustang evolved from a general purpose fighter which the RAF thought best suited to armed recon, to a long range escort fighter, which too had shortcomings until late 1944. I can't remember whether it was the wings folding or the tail breaking though, and until that got fixed, my money would be on the Lightning in the Pacific.

Getting back to the subject in hand, I'd have kept not only the Lightning but also the Airacobra for the RAAF & RNZAF in the Pacific, rather than cancelling the contracts.

 

[Dan Fahey]

The Lightning was a very advanced design for its day, so none of us should be surprised that it took so much time to fix all its faults and shortcomings. The Mustang evolved from a general purpose fighter which the RAF thought best suited to armed recon, to a long range escort fighter, which too had shortcomings until late 1944. I can't remember whether it was the wings folding or the tail breaking though, and until that got fixed, my money would be on the Lightning in the Pacific.

Getting back to the subject in hand, I'd have kept not only the Lightning but also the Airacobra for the RAAF & RNZAF in the Pacific, rather than cancelling the contracts.

Mustang did not have the chronic and long term problems the Lightning had.
Mixture of pilot comfort, airframe performance and repair and engine and turbo tuning.
Both planes were available in 1940...
The Mustang was an advanced design too.
It was successful right from the beginning but the Lightning took 4 years.

Instead of dealing with reliability issues the Brits experimented on the Mustang how to make it faster and more effective.
What made the Lighting successful when it was working was its range.
Which hampered the Spitfire and Airacobra for the Allies.
Russia liked the P39 because it was rugged and reliable and suited their fighting profile.
The Lightning was a competent enough fighter.
Just not as good or versatile as the Mustang.

 

[fubar57]

Both planes were available in 1940....

Again, the first Mustangs arrived in England on Oct. 24, 1942, far from being available in 1940

 

[wuzak]

Again, the first Mustangs arrived in England on Oct. 24, 1942, far from being available in 1940

Neither was any P-38 worth a damn.

 

[Dan Fahey]

Again, the first Mustangs arrived in England on Oct. 24, 1942, far from being available in 1940

British Aircraft Purchasing Commission signed its first contract for the North American NA-73 on 24 April 1940.
Meaning the Mustang was reviewed, accepted and available in 1940.

The prototype NA-73X rolled out in September 1940
102 days after the order had been placed and first flew on 26 October 1940
Arrival of the first batch to the UK was October 1941
First Mustang Mk Is entered service in January 1942.
26 Squadron RAF was the first to get the Mustang.

10 May 1942, Mustangs first combat mission was over France, near Berck-sur-Mer
27 July 1942, 16 RAF Mustangs took their first long-range reconnaissance mission over Germany

All well before October 1942

Contrast this with the Lightning that was started in 1937/38
The first Lightning to see active service was the F-4 version
P-38E in which the guns were replaced by four K17 cameras.
Joined the 8th Photographic Squadron in Australia on 4 April 1942.
Three F-4s were operated by the Royal Australian Air Force in this theater for a short period beginning in September 1942.

First US use was 29 May 1942, 25 P-38s began operating in the Aleutian Islands in Alaska
Lost many of the planes due to the harsh weather.
Was not until April 1943 where they started flying escort in ETO
Then deployed in the MTO and PTO did their career really start.

In contrast Mustangs were already fighting combat missions in Early Mid 1941

WIKI

D

 

[fubar57]

You might want to read this....P-51 History - MustangsMustangs.com "After 78,000 man hours and 102 days later, on Sep 9 1940, the prototype, NA-73X, rolled out of the hangar - without an engine"

 

[Dan Fahey]

You might want to read this....P-51 History - MustangsMustangs.com "After 78,000 man hours and 102 days later, on Sep 9 1940, the prototype, NA-73X, rolled out of the hangar - without an engine"

Already have that and a couple dozen other books on the Mustang back to 1965

 

[fubar57]

I have 52 books

 

[Dan Fahey]

I have 52 books

Mine are bigger than yours

 

[fubar57]

 

[Kevin J]

British Aircraft Purchasing Commission signed its first contract for the North American NA-73 on 24 April 1940.
Meaning the Mustang was reviewed, accepted and available in 1940.

The prototype NA-73X rolled out in September 1940
102 days after the order had been placed and first flew on 26 October 1940
Arrival of the first batch to the UK was October 1941
First Mustang Mk Is entered service in January 1942.
26 Squadron RAF was the first to get the Mustang.

10 May 1942, Mustangs first combat mission was over France, near Berck-sur-Mer
27 July 1942, 16 RAF Mustangs took their first long-range reconnaissance mission over Germany

All well before October 1942

Contrast this with the Lightning that was started in 1937/38
The first Lightning to see active service was the F-4 version
P-38E in which the guns were replaced by four K17 cameras.
Joined the 8th Photographic Squadron in Australia on 4 April 1942.
Three F-4s were operated by the Royal Australian Air Force in this theater for a short period beginning in September 1942.

First US use was 29 May 1942, 25 P-38s began operating in the Aleutian Islands in Alaska
Lost many of the planes due to the harsh weather.
Was not until April 1943 where they started flying escort in ETO
Then deployed in the MTO and PTO did their career really start.

In contrast Mustangs were already fighting combat missions in Early Mid 1941

WIKI

D

You were doing really well until your very last sentence which would apply to the Tomahawk.

 

[wuzak]

10 May 1942, Mustangs first combat mission was over France, near Berck-sur-Mer
27 July 1942, 16 RAF Mustangs took their first long-range reconnaissance mission over Germany

And, of course, Mustangs were involved in the Dippe Raid in August 1942.

In contrast Mustangs were already fighting combat missions in Early Mid 1941

I believe you meant to say early/mid 1942.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Arrival of the first batch to the UK was October 1941
First Mustang Mk Is entered service in January 1942.
26 Squadron RAF was the first to get the Mustang.

In contrast Mustangs were already fighting combat missions in Early Mid 1941

 

[pbehn]

The Mustang entered service in May '42.

You mean placing a purchase order and getting the planes in service takes more than a week? Well how long then? A whole MONTH?

 

[Shortround6]

Was not until April 1943 where they started flying escort in ETO
Then deployed in the MTO and PTO did their career really start.

In contrast Mustangs were already fighting combat missions in Early Mid 1941

last taken care of first. By your own post the first combat mission for the Mustang was

"10 May 1942, Mustangs first combat mission was over France, near Berck-sur-Mer "

So which is it. Early to mid 1941 or May of 1942?

and

Arrival of the first batch to the UK was October 1941

that first batch consisted of one airplane, serial no AG346. Four more arrive Nov 11th 1941,


for the P-38 they actually did fly one escort mission in Oct of 1942 before being withdrawn for use in operation Torch, by the end of Nov/beginning of Dec there were three fighter groups opertaiting P-38s in NA. There were no escort missions flown by P-38s in the ETO in April of 1943.

Your time line needs a bit of work.

 

[fubar57]

He has "a couple dozen other books on the Mustang back to 1965" so he's good

 

[Dan Fahey]

And, of course, Mustangs were involved in the Dippe Raid in August 1942.




I believe you meant to say early/mid 1942.

Correct