mike siggins
Airman
imagine what they could of done with p40 or a p51 seeing how well they did with the brewster buffalo
1942: The perfect fighter for the Finnish Front?
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They captured some P-40s from the Russians, but apparently didn't put them to much use.
They were fighting a short range, low altitude war for the most part. They had no interest in extending the battle beyound what was necessary to recover the territory lost in the winter war. So I don't see a need for a aircraft like the P-51 for the Finns.
They were fighting a short range, low altitude war for the most part. They had no interest in extending the battle beyound what was necessary to recover the territory lost in the winter war. So I don't see a need for a aircraft like the P-51 for the Finns.
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davebender
1st Lieutenant
1939 Finland GDP was rather small. They could barely afford weapons and ammunition for ground troops. Any fighter aircraft they purchase or build locally must be dirt cheap.
Why not procure P-36s like France did? Reasonably effective and one of the least expensive WWII era fighter aircraft. Air cooled engine is probably a plus for low operating costs.
Sweden license built R1830 engines. Perhaps Finland could license build P-36 airframes. Purchase 20mm cannon from Bofors or Madsen, one in each wing.
Why not procure P-36s like France did? Reasonably effective and one of the least expensive WWII era fighter aircraft. Air cooled engine is probably a plus for low operating costs.
Sweden license built R1830 engines. Perhaps Finland could license build P-36 airframes. Purchase 20mm cannon from Bofors or Madsen, one in each wing.
Glider
Captain
I think you will find that the P36 was very expensive to purchase. I am not saying that they were cheap to build but in 1939 it almost true to say that european nations were buying anything with wings and the US companies could and did charge top money for everything
The Finns had just as many P-36s as they did Brewsters, 44, but you don't hear much about them like you do the Brewster.
Most, maybe all the P-36, actually Hawk 75As, were ex French ac, war booty bought from the Germans, as were a lot of the FFAF aircraft.
Once the Continuation war was a few months old there was no chance of getting a license to build P36s out of the USA.
Most, maybe all the P-36, actually Hawk 75As, were ex French ac, war booty bought from the Germans, as were a lot of the FFAF aircraft.
Once the Continuation war was a few months old there was no chance of getting a license to build P36s out of the USA.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
If you wait until 1941 Finland has no chance to build aircraft factories and procure tooling period.
If Finland wants to build aircraft during 1942 they must begin R&D plus construction of production facilities during the 1930s.
It's a nation of less than 4 million people, with like you said, little surplus money. There is no easy answer.
Sure build factories, dams, smeilters in the 30's. With money from where?
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Indeed, the fact that they came up with a few indigenous fighters (in very small numbers) is an achievement in of itself.
My scenario asks the question of what they would build assuming that they did have the ability to procure 100 of their own fighters, within reason and using what materials they would likely have on hand. Dams and the like can take many years to build, so metal as a main construction element is unlikely.
I do like the idea of working with the Swedes to build the FFVS J22. The Myrsky was an attempt to build something similar, using the same engine.
The Swedes make the engines the Finns need. I think co-operation between those two countries would have been good for both.
And I think the FFVS J22 is a good candidate to fill the needs for both countries, but in the real world it was developed too late to help Finland early in the Continuation War.
The J-22 project wasn't started until the USA cut off all aircraft sales to most foreign countries not covered by lend lease in 1940. Maybe both countries working together would have got the project going earlier.
And I think the FFVS J22 is a good candidate to fill the needs for both countries, but in the real world it was developed too late to help Finland early in the Continuation War.
The J-22 project wasn't started until the USA cut off all aircraft sales to most foreign countries not covered by lend lease in 1940. Maybe both countries working together would have got the project going earlier.
Several good poiunts in the J22's favor is it uses a engine build by the Swedes, the P&W Wasp, and it's a very manuverable low altitude fighter, just what they need against the Russians. Not to mention it's landing gear would certainly get the FFAF ready for the Me109s.
If Germans would have been willing to sell their own fighters, then Bf 109F-4, that was the best 109 JG 5 had in the North at that time, so it would have been unreasonable to expect 109G-2s in 1942. Because Germans were unwilling to sell their own fighters to Finland, the 2nd best option would have been that Germans would have informend Finns that there were few dozens Klimov M-105 series engines available in their war-booty magazines, that might have been allowed the development of Mörkö-Morane with enough resources to begin a couple years before it actually happened. In reality Finns heard on the engines by an accident while a crew was picking up a war-booty Pe-2 from East Prussia in late 43. So the best fighter available to FAF in 42 was Brewster Model 239 but with some good-will from Germany it might have been possible, if Finns had draw right conclusions on VL Myrsky project in late 41 that the first Mörkö-Moranes would have been available in late 42.
Juha
Juha
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Hungary is another possible aircraft production partner. If you can get Germany to loosen export restrictions then Manfred Weiss can put a DB601 powered He-112B into production and some of those fighter aircraft will go to Finland.
IMO that scenerio is more plausible then expecting Finland to fund construction of an aircraft and/or engine plant. Instead machine shops in Finland would produce smaller components for the Hungarian built aircraft.
IMO that scenerio is more plausible then expecting Finland to fund construction of an aircraft and/or engine plant. Instead machine shops in Finland would produce smaller components for the Hungarian built aircraft.
Dave
we had an aircraft and engine plants. He 112 wasn't an answer Romanians retired their 112s before their Hurricane Mk Is from front line duties. As one writer put it in the headline of his article, 112 was a sheep in wolf's cloths..
Juha
we had an aircraft and engine plants. He 112 wasn't an answer Romanians retired their 112s before their Hurricane Mk Is from front line duties. As one writer put it in the headline of his article, 112 was a sheep in wolf's cloths..
Juha
davebender
1st Lieutenant
So are the Fw-190 and P-51 if forced to use a 700 hp Jumo 210 engine.
Install the latest model DB601 engine and the He-112B will become the wolf it was designed to be.
Install the latest model DB601 engine and the He-112B will become the wolf it was designed to be.
Shortround6
Major General
If the Finns (or a number of other countries) could get their hands on "the latest" DB 601 engines the particular airframe becomes rather unimportant.
It is the lack of suitable engines that held back many of these smaller countries.
It is the lack of suitable engines that held back many of these smaller countries.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
I disagree. The engine and airframe both matter and they must work together. Otherwise you end up with something like this abomination pretending to be an Me-109.
Avia S-199 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That's why Finland needed to go it's own independant way. Any alliance with Germany was always one way, to Germany's benifit only.
In 1940-41 Germany was not going to release any of it's latest technology to anyone.
Finland needed to look elsewhere than Germany for aid.
In 1940-41 Germany was not going to release any of it's latest technology to anyone.
Finland needed to look elsewhere than Germany for aid.
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davebender
1st Lieutenant
Finland didn't have a large enough GDP to go their own way. At a minimum they need to partner with neighboring Sweden.
