240 IAP La-5F/FN ?

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Steph, hi all,
I was interested to plane 14 some years ago and I remember that it was discussed on Sovietwarplanes. I think to remember that the plane could have been built as a La-5F, and later converted into a La-5FN replacing the engine and cowling. I think to remember that the photo of 14 in this configuration don't show the line of the triangular metal panel on the sides, behind the visible metallic one; this triangular panel, camouflaged, was on all La-5FNs built as such, but not on La-5F nor on La-5F converted into FN.
Regards
Massimo

 

[Wurger]

Hello Massimo,

THX for the info. The converting from F to FN may explain a lot.

 

[Wurger]

I think to remember that the photo of 14 in this configuration don't show the line of the triangular metal panel on the sides, behind the visible metallic one; this triangular panel, camouflaged, was on all La-5FNs built as such, but not on La-5F nor on La-5F converted into FN.

Actually it can be seen ... IMHO.

 

[Massimo Tessitori]

I agree.

 

[Wurger]

Thank you. But your information about the upgrading of the F to the FN version is very interesting and really can clarify many things.

 

[Massimo Tessitori]

I hope that something new will emerge, I've drawn a profile years ago for a page that is still awaiting my time to be completed. Maybe the serial, if known, could add something.
Regards
Massimo

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

Hi Massimo! it's a real honour to talk to you! Your work has been one of the biggest inspirations for me to start my own WW2 fighter plane research project Really glad to have you join in on this conversation!

About the conversion of Kozhedub's F to FN, such conversions were usually advised against, since they did not produce good results. They were done only when there were no other options available to the technicians on the airfields. So I doubt that Kozhedub's plane was such a hybrid - with reduced performance. But yes, it would help to explain some of the mystery about Kozhedub's White-14.

The potential F to FN conversion is the reason why I drew a profile artwork of this plane without the 'F' logo, just incase (Attached)

Unfortunately it doesn't help to shed any light on the mystery about Evstigneev's Number '96' airplane though. We'll have to keep looking.

 

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi, are you Anton Petrov, the owner of the site? I've seen it and was highly impressed for the excellent quality of the work, both for graphic level of profiles and for the research. I have still to read the whole site with the care that it deserves.
Thank you for your kind words about my old site. Now it would deserve a lot of work to be updated, particularly the pages on MiG-3 and I-17 that are very old.
About the conversion, I've read this explanation but I am not fully believing this. It is a possibility, of course. But I have seen some cases where a famous and glorious plane, publicized by propaganda, was replaced with a fake with similar slogans because the original plane was damaged, worn or lost and this was embarassing. I've seen the case of an Il-2 n.93, now I don't remember the unit, and I've just read something similar about the A-20G 'We doo'd it' (do you know anything about it?).
About plane 14, one could try to observe well the rear part of the plane on photos, far from the modifications on the nose, looking for resemblances or differences in other details, as the exact contours of the camouflage or the position of some dot that changed plane to plane, to find suggestions on the preservation or change of the airframe.
Best regards
Massimo

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

But I have seen some cases where a famous and glorious plane, publicized by propaganda, was replaced with a fake with similar slogans because the original plane was damaged, worn or lost and this was embarassing

Hi Massimo.

Yes, I agree. In fact. this is allegedly exactly what happened with Kozhedub's White-14. Basically Evstigneev crash-landed this plane on the 17th of February 1945, but for the photo session with "White-14" after the 23rd of February (To mark him receiving his H.S.U. title?) a La-5FN (Ex number '45') was repainted to look similar to Kozhedub's White-14, it was even given the same serial number on the tail. Examining the photo of White-14 La-5FN, it does seem to support this idea. (The idea that it was repainted). One can see a hand painted serial number on the tail and the serial number is that which belonged to Kozhedub's White-14 F plane.

P.S. yes, I'm Anton. 'Hi' again! Thanks for the kind words about the site God knows I try hard, lol

 

[le_steph40]

a La-5FN (Ex number '45') was repainted to look similar to Kozhedub's White-14

If I don't make a mistake, this "45" serial 39211445 was the one previously flown by Kozhedub from June to September 1944 (just after his "14" serial 3811414 flown from early May to early june)

Massimo, happy to see you here

 

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Anton, hi all,
this idea looks interesting. Assuming that some plane was repainted as n.14, is there a reason to think that it was another previously flown by Kozhedub and not any plane of the unit?
Who knows if they had other La-5F still in service? Probably not. Repainting a visibly different plane seems a very goofy fake.

 

[Wurger]

Not such things were done by soviets for the propaganda.

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

If I don't make a mistake, this "45" serial 39211445 was the one previously flown by Kozhedub from June to September 1944 (just after his "14" serial 3811414 flown from early May to early june)

According to A.Stankov it looks like it was indeed flown after White-14 La-5F. А.Станков. Самолеты, на которых Кожедуб одержал 150 побед

Since we are talking about its serial number (by the way, A. Stankov wrote the number as 3921FN1445), I had a look at that link you shared, and there is a very interesting coincidence there. The link says that this La-5FN (number 45) belonging to 178th GIAP, was lost on the 17th of Feb 1945! , well, that is exactly the day when Evstigneev crashed Kozhedub's White-14 La-5F!

Not sure what to make of it. Maybe that was the day when number 45 was turned into Kozhedub's White-14, while the authorities listed it as 'lost' instead? This would actually support the idea that this plane was repainted into "Kozhedub's White-14" after Kozhedub's White-14 was lost on the 17th of Feb. The authorities made it look like it was the White-45 that was lost, not the famous plane of I.Kozhedub (White-14). It's just a speculation of course, but it makes sense.

Repainting a visibly different plane seems a very goofy fake.

Massimo, I agree, it seems sloppy to use a La-5FN to copy a La-5F, but then they didn't even try to copy it exactly. I mean, the inscription is quite different, etc. Maybe they thought they'd make it look "better" for the newspapers/propaganda if they'll use a more reputable modification of a La-5 and make the inscription look 'prettier' by painting it differently? (Which is what I think Wruger alluded to).
Unfortunately this just created more confusion because now many people are not sure if Kozhedub's famous White-14 was an F or an FN,

In all this, It doesn't help that we are dealing with a lot of information that we found in "unofficial online sources" so it might not be accurate

 

[Niceoldguy58]

My research focus is/are USAAS/AAC/AAF bombers, attack and observation aircraft from roughly 1919-1945 - as well as whatever oddball stuff I can come up with - so reading threads like the above are a bit like opening a newly-discovered treasure chest.

I tip my proverbial hat to the researchers and enthusiasts here who take the time to dig through original photos and documents (and occasional commercially available sources) to help put the forgotten pieces of aviation history together.

Well done, gentlemen.

AlanG

 

[Massimo Tessitori]

Massimo, happy to see you here

I'm happy that you have started a so interesting thread.

Since we are talking about its serial number (by the way, A. Stankov wrote the number as 3921FN1445), I had a look at that link you shared, and there is a very interesting coincidence there. The link says that this La-5FN (number 45) belonging to 178th GIAP, was lost on the 17th of Feb 1945! , well, that is exactly the day when Evstigneev crashed Kozhedub's White-14 La-5F!

Not sure what to make of it. Maybe that was the day when number 45 was turned into Kozhedub's White-14, while the authorities listed it as 'lost' instead? This would actually support the idea that this plane was repainted into "Kozhedub's White-14" after Kozhedub's White-14 was lost on the 17th of Feb. The authorities made it look like it was the White-45 that was lost, not the famous plane of I.Kozhedub (White-14). It's just a speculation of course, but it makes sense.

Very interesting coincidence. The idea is likely, it is much easier to repaint an intact plane than to convert and repair a crashed one in few days.

In all this, It doesn't help that we are dealing with a lot of information that we found in "unofficial online sources" so it might not be accurate

True, but official sources could be unaccurate too. The coincidence of the date on the crashes of 14 and 45 is surprising, particularly if the informations are from different and independant sources.

Regards
Massimo

 

[fubar57]

MIG3LANGELO Unless I've missed it somehow, could you post a link to your site?

 

[Wurger]

Geo , in post #3 and #7

 

[fubar57]

Check. Couldn't put the name to it. Thanks

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

MIG3LANGELO Unless I've missed it somehow, could you post a link to your site?

Hi Fubar57 (Geo?), Not sure If I'm allowed to openly advertise the site here, but glad you saw the links to the planes on my website that Wurger pointed you to. Thanks Wurger!

Will keep researching and adding new planes. Evstigneev's 76 will definitely be a good one to do a page for, once enough info to do a profile artwork for it is collected.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

Hi Fubar57 (Geo?), Not sure If I'm allowed to openly advertise the site here, but glad you saw the links to the planes on my website that Wurger pointed you to. Thanks Wurger!

Will keep researching and adding new planes. Evstigneev's 76 will definitely be a good one to do a page for, once enough info to do a profile artwork for it is collected.

Hi MIG3LANGELO and welcome to the forum! Yours is a nice web, only manage to have a short look for the MiG-3 (my fav WW2 fighter) page but looks excelent! Just bookmarked it.