240 IAP La-5F/FN ?

[le_steph40]

Hello,

Here is my problem
For one of my future projects, I would like, if possible, to clarify a few points. I would like to build a La-5F/FN? flown by K. A. Evstigneev during the period Fall 1943-Spring 1944 but I found several informations concerning this aircraft probably/apparently flown between October 1943 and April 1944...
I found most on these informations on Russian sites.
First info: La-5F "black 96"
Second info: La-5FN "black 96" and a serial number 39210796 !!!
Third info: La-5FN "white 95"
And other info: La-5F/FN ? "white 95" repared after to have been damaged during March 1944 and become "black 96" after reparations... But I think this info is not probable because, mostly, the aircraft number marked on the fuselage is often (if not always) the last 2 digit of the serial number)

So, here is my question to try to know the model (F or FN ?):
Is it possible to know from when the 240 IAP received its first La-5FNs?
If the 240 IAP received its first FNs during Summer or Fall 1943, we could know the model. Will just have to find the number (95 or 96 ?)

TIA, regards
Stéph

 

[Wurger]

240 IAP - from July 2,1944 178 GvIAP. The regiment started using of the La-5 in the middle of 1942. In March 1943 one squadron named ' Эскадрилья Валерий Чкалов" of the regiment was equipped with the La-5 fighters. The plane type was used until the April 1945 and beginning the May 1945 the La-7 appeared. Unfortunately the Russian sources don't say what exactly variant of the La-5 was used.

 

[Wurger]

However , judging by the available pictures of the 240th IAP it looks like in August 1942 the La-5 was used. Also the existed pictures of the "Валерий Чкалов" Squadron show that these were the La-5 in 1943. The images of the Kozhedub's "14" dated on the May/June 1944 cleary presents the La-5F. Additionally the pic of "White 78" with Evstigneev standing next to the kite is dated on September 1944. The another known shot of Evstigneev's "14" dated on 1945 presents the La-5FN. But it is not sure if she was flown by him at all.

According to the foreword to Evstigneev's book he flew five La-5 planes in WW2 and it doesn't mention the La-5FN aircraft to be included in that list. It looks like Evstigneev's planes could be ...

1. La-5 White 02
2. La-5F White 55
3. La-5F Black 96
4. La-5F White 14 .... it was Kozhedub's famous plane Evstigneev inherited after Kozhedub's transferring to 176th GIAP and was crashed in February 1945.
5. La-5F White 78 founded and gave him in the September 1944

If the list is correct there wasn't any La-5FN with the "White 95" on the fuselage. Contrary to that there could be the "White"55" that was the F variant. According to the list the "Black 96" wasn't the FN version but the F. If that's true it would make sense. The crashed "White 55" but not "White 95"could be repaired, repainted and then re-registered as the "Black 96". As a result the requested La-5 variant should be the La-5F. Just my humble opinion.

The source: Evstigneev's White-14, Lavochkin, La-5FN fighter airplane profile art — Planes in Profile

 

[le_steph40]

Here is I found (all found on the web)

1. La-5 "white 02" from March to May 1943


2. La-5F "white 55" from June to August 1943

3. La-5F Black 96 apparently from Fall 1943 to Spring 1944 (my project and my problem) sometimes given as an F and sometimes as an FN. But it seems that 240 IAP didn't have FNs before Summer 1944... To be verified but it corresponds to your infos Wojktek


4. La-5F White 14 from September 1944 to February 1945 .... it was Kozhedub's famous plane Evstigneev inherited after Kozhedub's transferring to 176th GIAP and crashed in February 1945.

But the "real" aircraft, if it's the same, seems to be an FN with colored nose.


5. La-5F White 78 founded and gave him in the September 1944 => Regarding her, the infos I found say she was his last mount (?), between March and May 1945.



Other info I found: La-5FN "white 76" during Summer 1944 and La-7 "white 95" during late Spring 1945 but after VE day...

Wojtek, thank you for the infos you found, very useful, So, I think my project will be La-5F "black 96", this is the most probable possibility

 

[Wurger]

Great !!! According to all the Russian sources and my understanding the chronology should be like that. Unfortunately many of the sources mislead with mistakes in profiles and captions both to the profiles and pictures. For instance the profile you posted above for the point #4.

At glance we can say that's the F variant. But it is the initial impression only. What we have there .... look at the back of the engine cowl where the exhaust pipes were. There is one fairing at the door for a single larger exhaust pipe what indicates the F variant. This corresponds to the short fairing at top engine cowling behind the small front top inlet characteristic for the sub-type and earlier La-5. The FN didn't have a such single exhaust pipe but 5 separate ones there covered by the rectangle door without the fairing. And the front top inlet with the top bulge became one long part for the FN version. What is more there are three slots at the back adge of the metal protection plate that are distinctive for the FN kite. Also the artist added the fuselage protection aginst overheating , made of the matal plate behind the slots and going to the wing trailing edge at the wing root. The F varsion didn't have that at all. In other words, that's the mix of the F and FN sub-types. The Kozhedub's "White 14" was the La-5F for sure . So none of the FN details was there. All that can be noticed in images of the Kozhedub's mount. We can discuss if the chewron was applied there or not while Evstigneev was using the Lavochkin . As well as the foundation inscriptions seen on the Kozhedub's "14". Anyway, the inscriptions, their layout and location were different for both the Kozhedub's "14" and Evstigneev's "14". So these planes in both known images are different variants of the La-5.

So the Evstigneev's "14" should be like this ..

the source: 178 ГИАП (240 ИАП) ВВС КА - самолеты и эмблемы

The Kozhedub's "La-5F "14" ... the profile also was created with a mistake. The antenna wire was of an incorrect layout. I've edited that.
For more info ... Lavochkin, La-5F, Kozhedub's White-14 — Planes in Profile

the source: 178 ГИАП (240 ИАП) ВВС КА - самолеты и эмблемы

 

[Wurger]

And the additional info for the exhaust pipes ...

La-5F ...

La-5FN ...

La-5FN (left) La-5F (right)

the pic source: the net.

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

If the 240 IAP received its first FNs during Summer or Fall 1943, we could know the model. Will just have to find the number (95 or 96 ?)

A. Don't know when they received their La-5FNs, but most likely not in the summer of 1943.
About White-95 I can say that it was not a La-F nor a La-5FN, it was a La-7. it was flown by Evstigneev after the war. Evstigneev's memoir says that they were waiting to receive their La-7 planes when the war ended.
The only profile artwork I've seen of White-95 is here: Станков А.В.
Though I am not sure if A.Stankov's interpretation of the paint schemes in that link is correct. But allegedly he interviewed some of the veterans from this regiment to get his info.

By the way, about White-96. This was the plane in which Evstigneev scored most of his victories. It was originally a White-96, but in late march 1944, due to an internal explosion on takeoff, the plane caught fire. it had to be fixed and repainted . This is when the digits '96' were repainted in black with a red outline (Hence 'Black-96'). On the 8th of April, after the plane was fixed and Evstigneev recovered from burns to his face, he was back to flying his '96'. It's very likely that the number was painted black on the left side only, on the other side it might have still remained white (probably with blue outline).

Was White/Black- 96 a La-5F or a La-5FN, hard to know exactly. In fact, there is generally a lot of mystery and conflicting information surrounding the planes of Evstigneev and Kozhedub, unfortunately.

Apart from Black-96 (La-5F or FN) and White-95 (La-7), if you want to find out more about Evstigneev's other planes then check out these pages:

Kozhedub's and Evstigneev's White-14 La-5F. Lavochkin, La-5F, Kozhedub's White-14 — Planes in Profile
Evstigneeev's White-78 Lavochkin, La-5F, Evstigneev's White-78 — Planes in Profile

 

[Wurger]

About White-95 I can say that it was not a La-F nor a La-5FN, it was a La-7. it was flown by Evstigneev after the war. Evstigneev's memoir says that they were waiting to receive their La-7 planes when the war ended.

I agree. It is said it was the plane. I would say it's the La-7 but not the La-5FN ..

the source: Евстигнеев Кирилл Алексеевич - советский военный летчик Герой Советского Союза - Красные соколы. Советские летчики-асы 1914 - 1953

 

[le_steph40]

A. Don't know when they received their La-5FNs, but most likely not in the summer of 1943.
About White-95 I can say that it was not a La-F nor a La-5FN, it was a La-7. it was flown by Evstigneev after the war. Evstigneev's memoir says that they were waiting to receive their La-7 planes when the war ended.
The only profile artwork I've seen of White-95 is here: Станков А.В.
Though I am not sure if A.Stankov's interpretation of the paint schemes in that link is correct. But allegedly he interviewed some of the veterans from this regiment to get his info.

By the way, about White-96. This was the plane in which Evstigneev scored most of his victories. It was originally a White-96, but in late march 1944, due to an internal explosion on takeoff, the plane caught fire. it had to be fixed and repainted . This is when the digits '96' were repainted in black with a red outline (Hence 'Black-96'). On the 8th of April, after the plane was fixed and Evstigneev recovered from burns to his face, he was back to flying his '96'. It's very likely that the number was painted black on the left side only, on the other side it might have still remained white (probably with blue outline).

Was White/Black- 96 a La-5F or a La-5FN, hard to know exactly. In fact, there is generally a lot of mystery and conflicting information surrounding the planes of Evstigneev and Kozhedub, unfortunately.

Apart from Black-96 (La-5F or FN) and White-95 (La-7), if you want to find out more about Evstigneev's other planes then check out these pages:

Kozhedub's and Evstigneev's White-14 La-5F. Lavochkin, La-5F, Kozhedub's White-14 — Planes in Profile
Evstigneeev's White-78 Lavochkin, La-5F, Evstigneev's White-78 — Planes in Profile

I knew the work of researches made by A. Stankov. Even if the study seems serious, Like you, I think the camo schemes can be discussed. But I've another reflexion: this aircraft "white/black 96" was flown from Fall 1943 to Spring 1944, and I'm wondering what kind of camo scheme did she wear... AMT-4/6/7 camo scheme is very probable for the period Fall 1943 but she may have been repainted in AMT11/12 and then identified with big numbers (not the little ones often seen on the aircrafts with AMT4/6 camo). Or maybe a brand new La-5F recently manufactured and then delivered to the unit with new NKAP scheme ?
Nevertheless, can we reasonnably think that this aircraft was in AMT11/12 camo scheme with white markings between late 1943 and late March 1944 ?

 

[Wurger]

Tha camo scheme depends on the date. These La-5s intruduced into the service before the 3 July 1943 had the AMT-4/AMT-6/AMT-7 colours applied. All La-5s sent to units beginning 15 July 1943 were of the AMT-12/AMT-11/AMT-7 camo scheme. As memory serves the order of 3 July 1943 introducing the new colours for planes didn't demand repainting of the stuff already being in the service. So... if the "Black 96"came into the service before the 3 July 1943 she might have stayed in the earlier green/black camo scheme.

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

Good question @Le-steph40 and good answer Wurger .

Unfortunately I have not researched White/Black-96 myself, so I don't know a lot of info about it, but hopefully we can find out more!

Here is what I think at this stage:

1) because Grey/Grey camo was introduced on the 3-rd July 1943, as Wurger mentioned, by that time there were relatively few La-5Fs type '39' built. Same goes for La-5FNs, very few of these type 39 planes were built by July 3-rd. Both of these 'type 39' (see bellow) planes (La-5F and La-5FN) entered production in April 1943 or thereabouts and were distributed to a limited number of regiments that summer. These machines were essentially still being battle tested that summer during the battle of Kursk (July-August 1943). From memory, I have not come across any literature mentioning that 240th IAP was one of these first regiments that received these first (Green/Black) 'type 39' machines. Because of this, I get a feeling that the type 39 La-5Fs and FNs which 240th IAP received, were built after the 3rd of July, in which case they were most likely factory painted Grey/Grey.

2) If Aleksandr Stankov is correct in claiming that W/B-96's serial number was 39210796, then this was a 'type 39', 'series-07' airplane. Type 39, Series-07 planes were build around October 1943. If W/B-96 was built around October 1943 then it would have undoubtedly been a Grey/Grey airplane, with large digits for the tactical number (this was already a few months after the Grey/Grey camo and large tactical numbers were introduced, and a month after the stars with a white outline were introduced). I guess, we will need to confirm W/B-96's serial number somehow to see if 'series-07' is correct.
The rough approximation of dates of the different Lavochkin series can be found on this page: Нумерация Ла-5, завод №21



For those who don't know - Type '39' La-5s were the planes with a lowered fuselage behind the (re-designed) canopy - basically , the "classic" La-5F/FN look that we know (early 'type 37' La-5Fs had the canopy and the back of the fuselage as per the early La-5/LaGG-3). There were other differences from 'type 37' planes of course, but these two were the most visibly noticeable.
Whether W/B-96 was a La-5F or a La-5FN, it was almost certainly a type 39 airplane based on the time periods that we are talking about.

 

[Wurger]

Well pointed out, MIG3LANGELO . I must admit I got the same thoughts going through all the literature I have on my shelf. I agree with both points here.

 

[le_steph40]

Hello,

Thank you Wojtek and MIG3LANGELO
So, we can reasonnably think the answer to my question...

Nevertheless, can we reasonnably think that this aircraft was in AMT11/12 camo scheme with white markings between late 1943 and late March 1944 ?

...is that Evstigneev "96" was probably with AMT11/12 camo scheme with white with blue outline large digits before march 1944...
Something like that ?

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

Thanks Le_steph40

Yes, in my personal opinion it most likely was as you've described it. But my (our) opinion is based on limited evidence and some unproven presumptions so far.

In addition to what you wrote I would also add again that if W/B-96 was a series 07 'type39' plane then it probably also had stars with the white/red outline.

Are you making a scale model of this plane? I'd love to see it!
If it helps - Evstigneev described the left side of W/B-96 as having an "intricate camouflage" on the left side when the left side of the plane was repainted after fire damage/explosion. Unfortunately he doesn't describe the colours used or anything like that.

 

[le_steph40]

Thanks Le_steph40

Yes, in my personal opinion it most likely was as you've described it. But my (our) opinion is based on limited evidence and some unproven presumptions so far.

In addition to what you wrote I would also add again that if W/B-96 was a series 07 'type39' plane then it probably also had stars with the white/red outline.

Are you making a scale model of this plane? I'd love to see it!

Oops, I don't understand... The image I posted have the stars with white/red outline...

I found another information "39210795 ФН №21 07 95 1943 СССР 927-й ИАП" here La-5 serials

Does it mean that "W/B 96" is an FN and not an F...?
I think there is confusion with the engine type: M-82F or M-82FN. I think to have read somewhere the "FN" is the type of engine mounted on the airframe and it would be the reason why we can find sometimes illustrations or photos noted FN with the nose of the F airframes.
A. Stankov represented "96" with the nose of an F but noted FN 39210796

Yes, I would like to build this aircraft
I built another La-5, an FN here Popkov La-5FN

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

Oops, I don't understand... The image I posted have the stars with white/red outline...

Sorry, I didn't see the image! yes, it has correct stars in my opinion

**A. Stankov represented "96" with the nose of an F but noted FN 39210796

Yes, it's very confusing!. A. Stankov doesn't make it any clearer, lol. He drew a la-5f but wrote that it's a La-5FN, and on top of that he painted it all green.


By the way, on another note, if it helps then here is an excerpt from Evstigneev's memoir where he mentions '96'. after is was repaired:

Мой "лавочкин" опять в строю. Окраска левого борта имела вид затейливого камуфляжа, на фоне которого четко выделялась черная цифра с красной окантовкой - 96. Командир полка спросил на всякий случай:

- Может, есть желание сменить самолет?

- Да вы что? Никогда! Раненого друга не бросают,- без малейшей рисовки и позы я отказался от такого предложения. - Мы оба в отметинах и рубцах. Будем ц дальше воевать вместе.

- Рад слышать такие слова, - сказал Ольховский.

8 апреля я уже шел с группой на своем "лавочкине" с бортовым номером "96" в небо Румынии. Долго мы ждали этого дня! И он настал - день боевых действий за просторами нашей земли.

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

I found another information "39210795 ФН №21 07 95 1943 СССР 927-й ИАП" here La-5 serials

That's an interesting link! thanks for sharing. By the way, 927-th IAP is not 240-th IAP - as if it wasn't confusing enough already, lol, gosh, the deeper you dig the more confusing it becomes
I wander how trustworthy the info in that link is. The fact that it appears to be incomplete is Ok, but the fact that it might have mistakes is a concern.

 

[le_steph40]

That's an interesting link! thanks for sharing. By the way, 927-th IAP is a wrong regiment, it's not 240-th IAP. as if it wasn't confusing enough, lol, gosh, the confusion continues

Yes but the serial number is in the same batch that "96" 39210796... But as you said: "the confusion continues"

 

[Wurger]

But it doesn't seem to be on the list. If it would be the FN version it was there. And the 240th IAP would be mentioned there too.

Regarding the profile you posted above. I also think that's correct. The next clue that it was the F type may be the number of made planes by all factories in 1943. The number of all La-5Fs is said to be about 4039 while there were 991 of La-5FNs assembled only. As memo serves there was a practice of sending the best new planes to the best pilots or units but I don't think it was in the case.

 

[Wurger]

And one more thing ... here is a pic of the Evstigneev's "78". Believing all captions of the shot in books and the web it was taken in Spetember 1944. It can be noticed that it's the La-5F. In September of 1944 I would expect he should be given with a brand new La-5FN rather. Also, if his "96" would be the FN version why he accepted the worse plane than he was flying since 1943.

the source: the net.