240 IAP La-5F/FN ?

[le_steph40]

Hi Anton - MIG3LANGELO

I can't reply on the Massimo's forum, so, I would like to thank you for your translation regarding Evstigneev's mounts.

Regards
Stéph

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

I would like to thank you for your translation regarding Evstigneev's mounts.

Hi Le_Steph40. You are more than welcome! Sorry that I wasn't able to post the remaining two translations. Here they are incase you still need them:

Text under White-78

La-5F serial number39211278 side number 78, "From the farmer Konev"
of the navigator of the regiment, twice Hero of USSR, guards major Evstigneev K.A.,
Mechanic of the airplane: guards senior sergeant Ivanov. V.N. In number 78 were destroyed: 1 fascist airplane.
Producer of the airplane: Factory number 21.
Armament: 2 cannons MP-20(20mm)

Text under White-95

La-7 serial number 45210995 side number 95 of the navigator of 178th GvIAP, deputy commander of the regiment in l/p (I guess l/p (л/п) means 'летная подготовка' (flight training)? ), also :
Inspector-pilot in piloting technique and theory of flight of twice Hero of USSR guards major Evstigneev K.A. Mechanic: guards senior sergeant Kozlov P. 1945-1946
In number 95 were destroyed: 1 fascist plane. Producer of the airplane: Factory number 21 in Gorkiy. Armament of the fighter:
2 cannons MP-20 (20mm)

P.S. how are you getting on with your research and model? Would love to see progress on it

 

[le_steph40]

Hi Anton,

Thank you for the translation regarding "White 78" and "White 95".
As you probably noticed, Evstigneev's mount "white 96" is one of my VVS projects but without archive photos the researches are difficult. And without photos, it's hard to build a model really in line with the truth/reality. So, the words "possibly" or "propably" will be used when I'll decide to start this model, basing my sources on the camo-scheme "very probably" used for the period and some other points as unit markings for instance...
So, for the moment here is my interpretation of "white 96" late 1943/early 1944 (before reparations due the accident in March 1944).


I've the same problem with La-5F "white 19" from 164 IAP flown by Skomorokhov late in 1943. Here are the 2 options possible "drawn" with the result of my researches.


I don't know when I'll start these models/projects, maybe waiting for some other informations to come...
The only La-5 I built for the moment is the Popkov's mount, an FN here

Regards
Stéph

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

So, the words "possibly" or "propably" will be used when I'll decide to start this model, basing my sources on the camo-scheme "very probably" used for the period and some other points as unit markings for instance...

I know exactly what you mean Steph!. I had to do that a number of times too Trying to suppose and deduce is the only thing that we can do when we have a limited amount of info. And all the while we hope that new photos and info will emerge.

I agree with your profile of Evstigneev's plane, I think that's how his plane might have looked initially, before it was damaged and before the regiment became 178th GIAP and a part of the 3rd GIAK.
Looking at the photos of the planes of 178th GIAP, it seems like they have the front of the engine cowling coloured too. There is always a chance that Evstigneev's plane might have had this part of the engine cowling painted red also. And it might have had a large white 'chevron' painted on the fuselage. It seems to have been and identification marking of the 3rd GIAK.

About Skomorohov's plane, the lightnings on the planes of 295th IAD probably extended all the way to the tail, just past the number. This is actually regardless of whether this plane was from the 164 or 31st IAP. In addition to this, the lightnings seem to have been half lightning/half arrow - meaning that the ends of the lightnings had an arrow-like "tail".

I also feel that maybe the engine cowling wasn't coloured. Looking at the planes of the 295th IAD it seems that only their spinners were coloured, in most cases. It's been suggested that 164th IAP's spinners might have been red, as you've done in your first drawing (is that your drawing?), but without the engine cowling being coloured red also.

Other than that , I don't know much about this airplane at this stage. Would be great to see photos of it some day.

Love your model of Popkov's plane by the way, I left a comment in that thread

 

[le_steph40]

Hello,

Regarding "96" I thought/preferred to leave in red only the propeller spinner for the period late 1943-early 1944. It seems that the colored ring appeared after the 240 IAP became 178 Gv IAP during July 1944. The La-5F "14" from 240 IAP flown by Kozhedub during May/June 1944 had only the proppeller spinner in red, so, I did it the same for "96".
Regarding "19" from 164 IAP (not 31 IAP as sometimes seen) apparently flown by Skomorokhov, my 2 interpretations come from the discussion I started on the Massimo's website Skomorokhov. I think you're right about the length of the arrow/lightning, it must be a little longer towards the tail.
Here are 2 of the several other websites that I used to help me in my ressearches Soviet Aerial Tactical Markings of WW2 and 164 IAP

Regards
Stéph

 

[le_steph40]

Anton, I read your reply on the thread I started on the Massimo's forum; but since 2 or 3 months, I can't reply (Massimo and me don't know why ).
As you highlighted, the serial number is apparently a problem; as you said, if it's the good, this aircraft couldn't fight during Spring or Summer 1943... And it seems logical because I think I read somewhere the first deliveries to replace the LaGG-3s in March 1943 were La-5s, not La-5Fs
The only positive thing (if I may say so) is the number "19" and the period. Most of the infos I found refer to this number 19 flown during December 1943. So, with your precisions, here is another option for "19" flown by Skomorokhov late in 1943.

Have you notice that the La-5 "34" visible at 164 IAP, in the middle of the page is an La-5F with grey/grey camo ?


Regards
Stéph

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

The only positive thing (if I may say so) is the number "19" and the period. Most of the infos I found refer to this number 19 flown during December 1943.

Sounds good Steph Do you have links to these sources? will be great to know what those sources are to try and place a degree of confidence in how truthful they might be. I haven't researched this plane yet, so don't know any of these sources yet.

here is another option for "19" flown by Skomorokhov late in 1943.

I think that's better, but personally I would make the shaft of the arrow the same thickness throughout. Currently your arrow is thinner at the front and becomes gradually thicker towards the end(the back). In my opinion it should be the same thickness everywhere except for the very end of it, which has a thick tail, like an arrow(feathers) . The arrow of plane number 34 which you have attached, confirms that the shaft of the arrow was the same thickness. Bellow is a rough sketch to show what I mean.

Have you notice that the La-5 "34" visible at 164 IAP, in the middle of the page is an La-5F with grey/grey camo ?

I agree. Especially judging by the camo on the wing, it's definitely the grey/grey pattern template. The fuselage is less obvious however. Especially the part behind the number where it looks like the dark grey extends all the way to the bottom of the plane, which is non-standard for the grey/grey camo template.
There is a chance that this plane was originally painted green/black and was repainted grey/grey later. The reason for this thought is that there are no technical markings visible on the hatch and above the round 'air charger hatch' - the markings in these areas might have been painted over.

Another interesting thing about plane number 34 is a very unique antena wires arrangement. I have not seen this on any other La-5s before,

 

[le_steph40]

Hello,
Here is the last version of the "probable" La-5F flown by Skomorokhov

Anton, the sources are infos found on the Web and magazines: French Magazine Avions N°214, British Magazine FlyPast 07-2017, articles and infos by Aleksander Medved.


To Massimo, I saw your reply on my thread at your forum, but I'm sorry, it's still impossible for me to reply.
I'm not sure the photo you talk about is a Razorback La-5: look at the bar of the windscreen, it's horizontal as seen on the La-5Fs and FNs. If I'm not mistaken this bar wasn't horizontal on the La-5s Razorback.

Here is another photo with victory markings apparently modified/retouched, we can see the rear part of the canopy.


Regards
Stéph

 

[le_steph40]

I just noticed that the stars of victory markings are probably not red but white or yellow if we refer to the photo with the victories not retouched...

Massimo, thank you for the reply/comment on your forum

 

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Steph hi Anton, I see, you are right about the frame. This gives a further suggestion: the La-5F has to be of early production, without jettisonable rails, to justify the difference of height of the rear frame visible through the opened sliding hood. This encourages to think that the factory painting was black and green, but it could have been repainted grey later. The star is in forward position, so the numbers have to be big.

 

[le_steph40]

Massimo, as you suggested, if it's big numbers, the probability that this aircraft was repainted in grey/grey is big enough, even if we know some La-5Fs with big numbers and black/green camo have been seen...

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

Here is the last version of the "probable" La-5F flown by Skomorokhov

I reckon that's better
Steph, do you think the exhaust panel might have been painted grey too? it looks quite dark in the photo, might have been painted grey.
I would also make the white of the star a little darker, maybe more yellowed. It looks darker than the lightning.

Anton, the sources are infos found on the Web and magazines: French Magazine Avions N°214, British Magazine FlyPast 07-2017, articles and infos by Aleksander Medved.

Awesome, thanks so much for those sources, I'll check them out. I was just curious because if I'll create a profile page for this plane it will be good to know who made the claims that the number was '19'.

I just noticed that the stars of victory markings are probably not red

Interesting point. Yea, they could have been another colour. But because in most cases the victory starlets were painted red, it's highly likely that the ones on Skomorohov's plane were red also. Judging by how aged and chipped the paint is on the victory starlets in the first photo, it is likely that the red paint has faded and became lighter, which is why the stars appear to be so light.
I wouldn't trust the second photo for the colour of the stars, I think this photo has been retouched by an artist.

look at the bar of the windscreen, it's horizontal as seen on the La-5Fs and FNs

Good spotting!

This encourages to think that the factory painting was black and green, but it could have been repainted grey later. The star is in forward position, so the numbers have to be big.

Makes sense. I agree.
Might be worth noting that the large star doesn't seem to have an outer red outline which is another clue in suggesting that maybe the plane was repainted. If it was repainted then this would have been done after the mid-summer of 1943 most likely, by which time the airplanes were required to be grey/grey.
Also, it doesn't look like the plane has the camo pattern consistent with the green/black template, again suggesting that the original paintwork (if it was green/black originally) was probably painted over.

 

[le_steph40]

Steph, do you think the exhaust panel might have been painted grey too? it looks quite dark in the photo, might have been painted grey.
I would also make the white of the star a little darker, maybe more yellowed. It looks darker than the lightning.

I don't know about the exhaust panel. As you pointed out, it does indeed appear to be the same color as the camouflage. But since it seems almost established that this plane would have been repainted in grey/grey camo, there is a "probability" that the ground personnel, either did not bother to bypass properly the panel, or to pass copiously on it...
Regarding the white of the star a little darker than the lightning, it makes me think a discussion on the Massimo's forum regarding Popkov's La-5FN. On this "white 01", the white of the star and the number seem to be darker than the 2 vertical stripes . The explanation would be that the plane would have been used and worn out in another unit before becoming Popkov's mount and then adding the white stripes. It would be a difference between a worn white paint and a new white paint. Maybe the same with Skomorokhov's mount...?
But, I read sometimes on the web that this "white more darker" could be yellow or silver...

Awesome, thanks so much for those sources, I'll check them out. I was just curious because if I'll create a profile page for this plane it will be good to know who made the claims that the number was '19'.

I forgot a source: a profile sent to me by A. Stankov. This profile represents Skomorokhov's mount (La-5F) with number "19", victory markings and outline of the red star in silver, and aircraft entirely in green...

Interesting point. Yea, they could have been another colour. But because in most cases the victory starlets were painted red, it's highly likely that the ones on Skomorohov's plane were red also. Judging by how aged and chipped the paint is on the victory starlets in the first photo, it is likely that the red paint has faded and became lighter, which is why the stars appear to be so light.
I wouldn't trust the second photo for the colour of the stars, I think this photo has been retouched by an artist.

Agreed
In the magazine Avions 214, it's explained that it's Skomorokhov himself who cut out the little victory stars on the original photo so that we can see them better... But he took the opportunity to add some

Makes sense. I agree.
Might be worth noting that the large star doesn't seem to have an outer red outline which is another clue in suggesting that maybe the plane was repainted. If it was repainted then this would have been done after the mid-summer of 1943 most likely, by which time the airplanes were required to be grey/grey.
Also, it doesn't look like the plane has the camo pattern consistent with the green/black template, again suggesting that the original paintwork (if it was green/black originally) was probably painted over.

Agree again

Regards
Stéph.

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

It would be a difference between a worn white paint and a new white paint. Maybe the same with Skomorokhov's mount...?

Yep, I agree. It makes sense to presume that the darker white is simply older/more yellowed white.

Skomorokhov himself who cut out the little victory stars on the original photo so that we can see them better... But he took the opportunity to add some

haha. very cheeky of him to cut the starlets out and to add extra starlets there, lol. Thanks for the info about that.

 

[Jamoliva]

Greetings! What an excellent thread! I was reading all the posts and did some research with the hopes that it could help. Unfortunately, I could not find anything about a number 96. However, apparently Evstigneev Kirill Alekseevich wrote a book called "Winged Guard" in 1982. According to this book, he flew in a La-5FN, tail number 95 and shot down 36 enemy aircraft with it. I did not have the book and did not read it but according to this website there is a specific victory list which might be an interest to you. Of course, I have no idea about its accuracy. But I think this number 95 was a classic looking La-5FN with AMT-11/12/7 camo.

The website with the victory list including a/c flown, a/c shot down and date etc. Евстигнеев Кирилл Алексеевич
Soviet aces. Essays on Soviet pilots written by Bodrikhin Nikolai Georgievich. The section on Evstigneev Kirill Alekseevich. Евстигнеев Кирилл Алексеевич. Советские асы. Очерки о советских летчиках (See the section where white 95 became black 95 with a patchy camo due to an accident)
Ivanov's book on La-5s. Internet copy. Scroll down for two pictures of a La-5FN number 95. I would be shocked if that is Evstigneev's aircraft. Ла -5 [С Иванов] (fb2) читать онлайн | КулЛиб - Классная библиотека! Скачать книги бесплатно

All the best!

 

[le_steph40]

Hello

The website with the victory list including a/c flown, a/c shot down and date etc. Евстигнеев Кирилл Алексеевич

This website was one of the first sources I found regarding Evstigneev's mounts there is a longtime ago; the result was this one, that was over 10 years ago...

But it would seems that during Fall 1943, no La-5FNs in 240 IAP but La-5Fs. If it's verified, this would make improbable an La-5FN flown by Evstigneev from October 1943.
You could find here: Был достоин стать трижды Героем almost the same story as the 2nd link you posted but a modification in the texte (the 4th paragraph with text in red): the La-5FN "95" became the La-5F "96"... Hard to understand...
I think the only thing to be certain to know if it's a La-5F or FN is to know exactly the date of deliveries of the first FNs to the 240 IAP; hence the first post of my thread

Regards
Stéph

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

The section on Evstigneev Kirill Alekseevich. Евстигнеев Кирилл Алексеевич. Советские асы. Очерки о советских летчиках (See the section where white 95 became black 95 with a patchy camo due to an accident)

Hi Jamoliva, good to have you participating in the thread and thanks for those links!
To reply to your comment, I agree with le_Steph40 when he said the following:

You could find here: Был достоин стать трижды Героем almost the same story as the 2nd link you posted but a modification in the text (the 4th paragraph with text in red): the La-5FN "95" became the La-5F "96"... Hard to understand...

Basically, the two links above have almost the same text in that one paragraph. But in one link the author says that Evstigneev's plane was a La-5FN number 95, and in another the author says that it was a La-5F number 96. I have to agree with the latter claim. Evstigneev's plane in which he scored most of his victories was probably a La-5F number 96, or so it seems.

However, apparently Evstigneev Kirill Alekseevich wrote a book called "Winged Guard" in 1982. According to this book, he flew in a La-5FN, tail number 95

I am not sure how correct or not this information is. This information is found not in the book by Evstigneev, but in the foreword to the book, written by N.G. Bodrihin.

I have read this book 'Winged Guards' , and I didn't come across Evstigneev ever saying that his plane was a la-5FN number 95. He does however say that it was a number 96 instead. Based on the book (not the foreword to this book) it is more likely that Evstigneev scored most of his victories in plane number 96.
I don't see the reason for why they would change the number of this plane from 95 to 96 when they repainted it. It makes more sense that they have patched the plane up, but repainted the same tactical number (just in a different colour) on it as it always had - number 96.
The only time the number of this plane is mentioned in the original text of "Winged Guards" by Evstigneev is in the chapter called "in hte sky of Romania" , page 376-377. Here it is :



'Мой "лавочкин" опять в строю. Окраска левого борта имела вид затейливого камуфляжа, на фоне которого четко выделялась черная цифра с красной окантовкой - 96. Командир полка спросил на всякий случай:

- Может, есть желание сменить самолет?

- Да вы что? Никогда! Раненого друга не бросают,- без малейшей рисовки и позы я отказался от такого предложения. - Мы оба в отметинах и рубцах. Будем ц дальше воевать вместе.

- Рад слышать такие слова, - сказал Ольховский.

8 апреля я уже шел с группой на своем "лавочкине" с бортовым номером "96" в небо Румынии'

I think the only thing to be certain to know if it's a La-5F or FN is to know exactly the date of deliveries of the first FNs to the 240 IAP; hence the first post of my thread

I agree with Steph. Though, It might not definitively clarify what type of a plane number 96 was, it will at least make more sense to think that it might have been a La-5FN if it'll turn out that 240th IAP received La-5FNs in the summer of 1943. But for now we can only guess and speculate it seems.

 

[Jamoliva]

Thank you both for the information! Yes, I believe you are both right. I was able to find the text of the book and here it is it says number 96. I wonder also how the intricate camo on the port side was like. Wow, such a mystery!

 

[MIG3LANGELO]

Thank you both for the information! Yes, I believe you are both right. I was able to find the text of the book and here it is it says number 96. I wonder also how the intricate camo on the port side was like. Wow, such a mystery!

So true Jamoliva! I wish we had a photo or a better description of what the paintwork looked like on Evstigneev's plane after it was repainted.

Apparently A.Stankov talked to some of the veterans who served in that regiment (if I am not mistaking) and here is how he interpreted the camo :

Александр Станков: 100 летие со дня рождения дважды Героя СССР К.А.Евстигнева

deruluft.livejournal.com

It's interesting to see, though I am not sure how accurate/trustworthy it is

 

[le_steph40]

Hello,

Far be it from me to question A. Stankov's work, even if it seems that the informations are precises (serial numbers, ground crew/mechanics names, etc...), I think the profiles are sometimes not very realistics. I don't understand why the La-5Fs he draw are often/always in only one color: green... Evstigneev's "55", "96" and "78" is in 2 tones green, Skomorokhov's "19", Kozhedub's "85" in green color and "31" in 2 tones green (moreover, this "31" questions me ...).
We know for long time that only 2 camo schemes were used by the fighters of the VVS between July 1941 and the end of the war => green/black and grey/grey (and sometimes only one grey at the end of the war)...