A look at German fighter Ace kill claims (1 Viewer)

[GregP]

Bingo! No bias in the records, they did not care who shot down who. It was pure accounting for the resupply of units with aircraft, pilots, and supplies.

The Luftwaffe used a points system, even on the Eastern front.

We do, see Verified Victories.

BAMA, NARA, TNA, TsAMO. This takes effort.

Once again, BAMA, NARA, TNA, TsAMO. These have been open for decades and have ample online information one may access for free. Since about 2010 there has been no excuse for not checking the original scanned documents for those actually interested in the topic. Checking the original paperwork is what sets those genuinely interested in the subject apart from others, and the bar to enter is extremely low (you need an internet connection). I started my journey about 8 years ago and the resulting information has been amazingly rewarding.

Bingo.

Very interesting that those who write the history books we read, those who do genuine research, those who do the archeological digs, those that teach in universities actually read the book, and agree with its approach.
One fault people continuously fall into is they fail to read the very first chapter literally titled "What is a Victory", which uses the actually Luftwaffe claiming directives.

It only take the difference of 1 claim to change a total. Simple arithmetic. No need to review some 80,000+ claims.

Exactly why it is easy to spot those who have read the book, vs those who have not, because the answers are in the very first chapter.

But now you are introducing a personal preference 80 years after the fact. That's why that is faulty. That is also why the Luftwaffe gave specific directives which we outline in the first chapter.

According to the official Luftwaffe claiming directives, neither did the Luftwaffe.

Military Aviation History: This is a very good book.
Dr. Klaus Schmider highly recommended the book to Chirs
Dr. Andrew Arthy is a proponent of the book
Nick Beale is a proponent of the book
Delmar Davis is a proponent of the book
Dénes Bérnad is a proponent of the book
Punka György is a proponent of the book
Dr. Markus Reisner is a proponent of the book, etc...

I am here, ask away.

Your remark that the Luftwaffe used a points system, even on the eastern front tells me a bit.

A points system WAS used, but generally ONLY on the western front. If it was used at all, it was used solely for awarding decorations for aerial combat accomplishments, such as Iron cross, Honor cup, German cross, Knight's cross. It was never used for tracking aerial victories. The system for awarding actual aerial victories was stringent, but there were exceptions, as with most any system, that got through.

This became more apparent when the German archives were made public in the 1990s. Reviews showed German claims were around 90% accurate when compared with Allied records. This compares VERY favorably when compared with almost any other air force that participated in WWII.

I don't have much to ask, but thanks for the offer. Perhaps in the future.

Cheers.

 

[Luft.4]

Your remark that the Luftwaffe used a points system, even on the eastern front tells me a bit.

Hopefully it does because it was present. JG 51, JG 52 etc... even in late March 1945. They were titled "abschüssen gleichzusetzen". It converted the type of claim into a point/s. The Luftwaffe did use the points system on the Eastern Front.

but generally ONLY on the western front.

Simply not true. Ample evidence it was used on the Eastern front as well.

It was never used for tracking aerial victories.

That is again incorrect. Claims and points had a 1:1 relationship because one is derived from the other and vice-versa. The number of claims can directly be extracted from the points breakdown of a pilot... and period documents do exactly that.

The system for awarding actual aerial victories was stringent

Verified Victories, Chapter 1, will provide about 10 pages and 97 footnotes on how messy the situation was. This messy situation was acknowledged even by high ranking RLM/OKL staff post war.
Take Erich Hartmann's 301 in August. Approved by his unit while he was still flying (ie. no paperwork filled out yet!), he gets his award, pictures/leave/etc, and the OKL only give their final approval way after in October/November 3 months after the fact once all the propaganda had been created. It was increasingly a mess from 1943 on wards.

 

[GregP]

Been looking at this for more than 50 years, including talking with WWII pilots about it ... including German veterans, and you are the first person to suggest the Germans used a point system for aerial victories.

I'll pass on commenting and watch from the sidelines as an interested observer.

Methinks it is YOU who are incorrect.

In the end, it doesn't matter much to me. I have loads of references that never once mention the points system for anything except decorations.

But, don't let that get in the way of promotion. Go for it.

Cheers.

 

[Luft.4]

First

Of course, I don't HAVE and do not see how I can GET German primary sources.

then

Been looking at this for more than 50 years

... anyway. BAMA, NARA, TNA, TsAMO. Online, free, been that way for a decade and only getting better.

you are the first person to suggest the Germans used a point system for aerial victories.

I believe you fail to understand me. It was used since at least 1943 to translate an action into a standardized metric for awards. Nothing special about it. I am about the 10,000th person who has made mention of the points systems used for aerial victories. It was also used for operational flights, special mission types, etc. Its purpose was literally to track the aerial claims, define them by a standardized metric, and then after accumulating X number of points to be "cashed out" as an award. Nothing about the above deviates from the past 80 years of research. Careful re-reading of my post #22 clearly states this. From these lists you can count the number of claims a pilot made. If the points system is not tracking aerial claims (or special flights, etc), what would you think (or 'methinks') it tracks exactly?

The system tracks actions (input), then it accumulates these to result in an equivalent for an award (output).

One is welcome to "methinks" all they wish, meanwhile aviation research based on archival documents steadily continues to get better and better. It has never been this accessible either which is an excellent thing!