A look at German fighter Ace kill claims

[CHen10]

an aircraft leaving combat smoking like a Trabant, with a fire, with parts beaking away was considered a victory, it doesn't mean the plane (and pilot) was lost.

This reminds me of a situation on 28 May 1945 over Kanoya.

343 Kokutai N1K2s vs 318 FG P-47Ns

William Loflin's P-47's windshield was covered in oil and his radio was damaged.

(He couldn't have his windshield covered in oil from chasing a smoking enemy aircraft because he wasn't credited with an enemy aircraft shot down and he was forced to disengage immediately from the dogfight giving him no chance to chase enemy aircraft)

Due to this fact and the damaged radio in his cockpit, it was clear he was hit by something.

Since the N1K2s were seen attacking William Loflin and then caused him to disengage, the fact they were credited with shooting down P-47s, and the fact that no one else was credited with a P-47, the 343 Kokutai N1K2s definitely damaged William Loflin's P-47.

To this day no one knows if Loflin's P-47 was scrapped or not.

For me if it was scrapped, then I would consider that a victory because it's been concluded that the P-47 was damaged beyond repair.

If it was repaired, then I would consider it an overclaim since the aircraft isn't destroyed.

Let's just assume it was repaired for argument sake (may not have been)

What do people in this thread consider this if we assume it's repaired?

Victory or Overclaim?

For me it's overclaim

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Victory

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Both victory and overclaim. Victory because he was forced out of the fight, overclaim because he wasn't in fact destroyed.

An infantryman who forces his enemy to flee the field, or wounds him such that he cannot fight back, is considered the victor in that engagement. A battalion who chases off an opposing battalion and seizes the vital ground is the victor. Same for fleets, in most cases.

The loser is not always destroyed. The victor doesn't always exterminate the enemy.

 

[Luft.4]

For the P-47 example and its hypothetical end result of a reparable plane: ultimately an over claim for the Japanese fighters, even though the claim might have been put in with good faith. Why? Because in this hypothetical example the P-47 was repaired and not destroyed. If not destroyed, all that the Japanese fighter did was damage the P-47. You could provide the Japanese pilot with a damaged claim at best.
Post #240 outlines several official documents which state destruction to be the threshold for a victory from multiple nations. All state destruction. War-time, post war-time it is all the same.
Should all those B-17s and B-24s which turned back from a mission with combat damage and landed safely in England be also considered victories for the Axis? Of course not. RLM regulations even explicitly state this to be grounds to reject the claim. If you forced out the enemy aircraft you could maybe get an HSS claim in, maybe, but not an aerial victory (luftsieg).
Indeed I have seen many VNE cards given to units stating that the reason they were rejected was because the enemy aircraft flew back over the front lines and towards their base, destruction could not be proven. Hence: Vernichtung Nicht Erwiesen.
A small note on scrapping, and this is where things get extremely tricky, one needs to demonstrate that the scrapping was a result of the combat damage and not because of other factors (obsolescence, weather damage, self-inflicted damage, etc). For this one needs a lot of information and it takes a wack-ton of time to sort these examples out.

 

[WARSPITER]

As a lot of the stories still around stem from the book The Blond Knight of Germany, please show which 4 P-51s were claimed by him on 24 June 1944 over Romania using American records?

A lot of the Hartmann 'claim' figures come from earlier publications and subsequent research into RLM records show them to be wrong.

The RLM records for 24 June 1944 show that Hartmann claimed one Mustang only. This aircraft according to US records was piloted
by Joseph W. Harper and was seen being engaged by ME 109's. The pilot baled out and the plane crashed near Loloiasca. Harper was
captured and hospitalised with burns.

Other publications have Hartmann claiming as many as seven P-51's on the same day when the RLM records clearly state he claimed one
only and one went down where his unit had engaged.