Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
A better job of fairing the cowl MG 131s, then put a MG 131 inside each wing.
Not great but about twice the firepower of a Ki 43 or about equal to a Ki 44 or many Ki 61s.
AND THEN you get factor in the MG 151/20.
Or if you want, hang a single MG 151/20 under the fuselage
Granted you need the electric primed ammo.
MG 131 weighed about 17kg4 of the weaker HMGs + one cannon, or 3 cannons? I'd pick 3 cannons.
Saying that something has much better firepower than the Ki-43 is a damning with a faint praise.
Frontal area is similar to two gondolas? Plus it takes the spot for the drop tank.
MG 131 weighed about 17kg
MG FFM weighed about 25-28kg
MG 121/20 weighed about 25-28kg
Ammo may make or break it.
Bf 109 will certainly need both some nip & tuck (to lower the drag) and a better luck with available engines - talk improvement of the timetable by at least 6 months vs. what was in case historically? Easier said than done for the DB 605s?With the 109 the power did not stay constant.
The opposition did not stay constant.
What was useable in late 1942/early 1943 was behind the times in spring of 1944.
A FW 190 was a much better bomber buster with four MG 151/20 cannon.
A 109 is too small to carry the the needed guns without loss of performance.
A 109 replacement should also have a longer endurance even if it was just 30 minutes or so (widen it's intercept radius around it's base by around 100km without drop tanks?)
For a good part of 1943 the German fighters could attack the bombers without much interference from fighters, as the year went on the Escort fighters started to push them back.
The Bomber busters of 1942/first 1/2 of 1943 can be much different than the bomber busters of the spring of 1944.
The Germans needed a higher rate of fire from the bomber busters.
They needed to get enough shells into the air in a limited amount of time to make sure they hit the bomber enough times.
Higher MV helps hit the target but the improvement may not be enough. The MK 108 was an enormous change in that they figured that 3 hits, on average, could take down a 4 engine bomber. With the 20mm guns they needed 18-20 hits.
So a single MK 108 needed about 5-6 20mm cannon to equal it. Granted the 20mm MG 151 fired a bit faster (not a lot).
Germans also calculated at one point that the "average" German pilots was only getting about 2% of shells on the target so a 4 gun fighter needed about 1000 shells to take down a bomber. And the fighters simply couldn't carry that ammo load. (or your figured 2-3 fighters per intercept).
These are hypotheticals with unlimited firing time. Obviously good pilots could do much better, pilots right out of school are going to fire a lot of ammo without hitting much.
During the time of the 109Fs and the early 109G gunboats they were still working out the math.
A slightly higher velocity 30mm cannon may make it easier to hit but if the gun has a slower rate of fire it may cancel out. If a MK 103 has got a rate of fire about 2/3rd that of the MK 108 it is going to fire fewer shells per firing pass, it can open fire from a longer distance but that depends on on firing angle.
With two MK 108s weighing less than a single MK 103 the rate of fire is certainly on the side of of the MK 108.
Not really unless you stretch to think so. Keep the older aircraft as priority until you get to the point the engines are about ready to enter production and then start up Me262 production.The 1st quoted sentence clashes with 3rd sentence wrt. Me 262. Me 262 was ready, engine production was not.
Sure, but that doesn't make a 1 engine jet fighter viable at the time given the reliability issues of the engines available and thrust power. Or that the Me163 was even viable as a jet fighter.Please note that 1-engined fighter needs 1/2 of engines vs. what will a 2-engined fighter need.
No they did not. They phased in the Me210 and cancelled the Bf110 for 6 months as well as disrupted Me109 production in favor of the Me210 only to go back on plans and cost themselves about 2000 aircraft in the crucial 1941-42 period. That was the inflection point of the air war when keeping production rates high to make sure forces in the field had enough mattered. Maximizing output in 1944 was too late of course, but in 1941 the Germans still had relative parity and exception kill rates, so having enough fighters to go around, especially during the night bombing offensive, could have resulted in substantially higher kill rates that would have helped crippled British and Soviet airpower through casualties. The shortage of night fighter was especially acute in 1941-42 and that was when having enough to hobble Bomber Command as well as ensure there were enough so that more night fighter crews could be trained and gain experience would have really be possible.As about the 109 and 110 - they more or less did what you suggest, it was not working. Allies were both making more fighters and a lot of their fighter were much better types than it was a Bf 109 or 110. Even if we allow for some nip & tuck that can gain 10-15 mph in 1943-44.
Not really unless you stretch to think so. Keep the older aircraft as priority until you get to the point the engines are about ready to enter production and then start up Me262 production.
The Me262 was held up due to the engines, not the airframe.
<snip>
Maximize output of improved Me110s and Me109s with production resources until the 262 is ready.
Sure, but that doesn't make a 1 engine jet fighter viable at the time given the reliability issues of the engines available and thrust power. Or that the Me163 was even viable as a jet fighter.
In the East they needed all the Me109s they could possibly get.
No they did not. They phased in the Me210 and cancelled the Bf110 for 6 months as well as disrupted Me109 production in favor of the Me210 only to go back on plans and cost themselves about 2000 aircraft in the crucial 1941-42 period. That was the inflection point of the air war when keeping production rates high to make sure forces in the field had enough mattered. Maximizing output in 1944 was too late of course, but in 1941 the Germans still had relative parity and exception kill rates, so having enough fighters to go around, especially during the night bombing offensive, could have resulted in substantially higher kill rates that would have helped crippled British and Soviet airpower through casualties. The shortage of night fighter was especially acute in 1941-42 and that was when having enough to hobble Bomber Command as well as ensure there were enough so that more night fighter crews could be trained and gain experience would have really be possible.
There were several top engineers that have said exactly that. Heisenberg in fact said he was keeping men working on nuclear projects that had no hope of being ready in time to keep them off the frontlines.I've seen very little to "document" my theory, but by 1942 the Eastern Front was a concern for every man living and working in Germany. A real personal threat!
Meanwhile, opposing the Nazi regime was exceptionally dangerous.
What better personal strategy could there be than to support the "war effort" by offering up Wonder Weapons, and projects claiming to better the "enemy" and could be deemed essential to the German war effort. All the while recognizing that any effort put into these "advanced" programs was energy unlikely to actually contribute to the Nazis winning the war.
Even low level technicians, engineers and workers could be deemed "essential" to a project, and hence exempt from conscription.
I got your logic, just think it is based on semantics.See here:
Me 262 was ready, however the engines were not available.
With what ready and available jet engine? And what sort of performance would it have had with the power that they could even produce in 1944?Here we disagree - I still claim that not going with an 1-engined fighter already by 1943 was a mistake for the Luftwaffe.
You claimed they did as I suggested more or less. I'm saying no they did not do that and explained why.All good, the Bf 109 was very good in the East, and in general it was a good/excellent fighter.
They did not what?
Having more of the night fighters would've been a bigger hurdle to the Allies. German problem was that they were already unable to provide enough of skilled pilots for the fighters they had, and that by 1942, let alone in 1943 the fighter force they had were still unable to achieve air superiority against the West. Fuel situation was also not very conductive for the significantly increased fighters' numbers.
They needed an over-performer, and even an improved Bf 109 could not do it. A jet-powered fighter just might do it, provided they can be had in many hundreds, and in many thousands by 1944.
With what ready and available jet engine? And what sort of performance would it have had with the power that they could even produce in 1944?
In terms of daylight fighters I agree with you, but the single jet engine fighter was not the way to go and wouldn't have been viable anyway due to lack of engines until 1944, not that the single engines had enough performance to make a single engine fighter what you claim they needed.
Which were even lower powered, though they were lighter.Jumo 004 can be a choice, unless some HeS engines are given a hand by RLM.
The subsequent one was not ready before the Jumo and still required 2 engines for the fighter it was supposed to be for.Although successful, the engine had too little thrust to be really useful, and work started on the more powerful Heinkel HeS 8 as their first production design.
First of all that assumes Soviet data is accurate and the model tested was anything more than an unarmed, unarmored prototype. Even if it was it was 400kg lighter empty than an Me109 G-6, so would have been utterly shredded by bomber box defensive fire due to the likely lack of armor to get so light. Also the range was seriously limited too. Not only that, but the muzzle velocity of the cannons would have required it getting very close, basically as close as the MK108, but at 23mm the cannons wouldn't have had enough ammo to down a B-17 (60 RPG) unless emptying all ammo on one and hitting with everything.The Soviet copy of the Jumo 004 - RD-10 - with thrust of 900 kg (1980 lbf, ie. same as the Jumo 004) propelled the Yak-15 to 780+ km/h per Russian-language Wikipedia. Even if we shave 20-30 km/h from that figure on account of heavier guns' firepower, it is still a big leap in performance vs. the majority of fighters the Luftwaffe was using to battle the WAllies from second half of 1943 on
Some were lower powered, some were not.Which were even lower powered, though they were lighter.
Bad link.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_HeS_ The subsequent one was not ready before the Jumo and still required 2 engines for the fighter it was supposed to be for.
First of all that assumes Soviet data is accurate and the model tested was anything more than an unarmed, unarmored prototype. Even if it was it was 400kg lighter empty than an Me109 G-6, so would have been utterly shredded by bomber box defensive fire due to the likely lack of armor to get so light. Also the range was seriously limited too. Not only that, but the muzzle velocity of the cannons would have required it getting very close, basically as close as the MK108, but at 23mm the cannons wouldn't have had enough ammo to down a B-17 (60 RPG) unless emptying all ammo on one and hitting with everything.
Even if we shave 20-30 km/h from that figure on account of heavier guns' firepower
There is a reason that nothing less than the Me262 would suffice for bomber killing and in terms of performance for fighting combat it wouldn't have really improved anywhere near enough for dog fighting.
Worked for me. It is for the HeS 03 if you want to google itSome were lower powered, some were not.
Bad link.
Then it gets into piston engine fighter territory with much lower weight, loiter time, armor, and armament. AKA pointless.Haven't I already make an allowance for heavier guns' battery?
I would read some Me 262 fighter memoirs, they say the bomber boxes were the biggest issues. Escort fighters were more a problem for when taking off or landing, which your fighter would not be able to counter either.The bomber box was not as much of a problem as it were the escort fighters.
Because of myriad issues which would impact your proposed fighter as well.There is also a reason for Me 262 production to be as it was: totally unable to provide the numbers for the needs of Luftwaffe. Reason being the engine production was insufficient for each of those requiring two engines.
Two problems that I can see with the single engine jet.
1. endurance, this is separate from range. Maybe I did the math wrong but the Yak appears to have an endurance of about 40 minutes. Now it can fly around 300 miles in that 40 minutes but the early jet engines didn't throttle down well at all and they usually got worse fuel consumption (lbs of thrust per pound of fuel/hour) at low power settings.
You have to time the interceptions pretty well.
2. Armament. Will two 20mm MG 151 guns do the job or do you need two MK 108 guns?
The two ML 108s may not a be a deal breaker but the MK 108s area bout 50% heavier than the Russian 23mm guns and the ammo is a lot heavier (175gram Shell vs 330gram shell.) complete cartridge is closer.
Maybe not a big difference in performance ?
Worked for me. It is for the HeS 03 if you want to google it
Then it gets into piston engine fighter territory with much lower weight, loiter time, armor, and armament. AKA pointless.
I would read some Me 262 fighter memoirs, they say the bomber boxes were the biggest issues. Escort fighters were more a problem for when taking off or landing, which your fighter would not be able to counter either.
Yak-15 prototype achieved 770 km/h at ground level and 800 km/h at 5,000 m.First of all that assumes Soviet data is accurate and the model tested was anything more than an unarmed, unarmored prototype.