A6M - Germany Japan Technology Exchange Missed Opportunity?

[NevadaK]

The problem with Germany adopting the A6M (or any other type), is that it would either have to be done so very early in the war or before it, in order to tool up and mass produce both the aircraft and it's engine.
The alternative is to purchase the completed aircraft outright, which is physically impossible due to logistics and those pesky Allies getting between Japan and Germany.

If we turn back to Heinkel for a moment, we did see the RLM hold interest at a few stages in the He112's development. The early model did have issues, which were ironed out by the time of the He112B.
At that point, the RLM decided that even with the 112's performance, such as better range than the Bf109, it would be redundant, so it was never given the green light.
So, with that in mind, we look back to the A6M and have to look at it from the RLM's perspective:
What could it do better than the Bf109?
Yes, it had better (much better) range than the 109, but so did the 112 (almost twice the range). This was obviously something the RLM was either oblivious to, or not interested in.
The A6M was better at low altitude maneuvering, granted, however the altitudes that the Luftwaffe and RAF engaged were in the range where the A6M's performance was starting to flatten out.
And then there was the issue of armor and protected fuel tanks.
I would guess that as impreasive as the Model 11 or Model 21 was, the RLM would also consider it redundant.

Greetings GrauGeist,

I don't disagree with you. Thinking about how this thread started, I was struck by the possibility that the LW had opportunities to develop a fighter that would have been capable enough to fill the role needed during the BoB for long range escort and air superiority. My thought was that design knowledge could have come from Japan given the development of the Zero, but I was unaware of the capabilities of the He112 as you have referenced which also demonstrates that this knowledge was possibly closer at hand. I think your point that "the RLM was either oblivious to, or not interested in" is spot on.

Thanks for your comments.

Kk

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'd say the better deal is the opposite, with Japan getting German tech... radars, powerful radial engines, good AA guns, etc. There's just nothing Japan has for Germany.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Greetings All,
Your thoughts?

Germany was limited principally by:

1) Lack of critical metal alloying elements
2) Lack of fuel
3) Poor strategic planning
4) Terrible technological and scientific management
5) A reliance on imported-foreign/forced labour

Licensing foreign designs would potentially circumvent (but not solve) #3 & 4 in the very short term. Thats about it.

Winning the war would have involved solving #3 & 4 in the mid 30`s, then planning your way around #1,2 & 5.

Japanese engineers did a good job of managing their own moderately similar situation, importing their solutions to their own problems
does not solve Germany`s issues... much as I do like Japanese WW2 aviation stuffs: (Zero engine)

 

[Glider]

Its an understandable temptation in this forum to concentrate on aircraft but I feel the biggest advantage to be gained by the Japanese was on the ground. Equipping the Japanese Army with the simple MP40 and Panzerfaust would have made a huge difference in the close range jungle warfare of the Far East. Again on land, the Germans were world leaders in the training and use of infantry and in many ways the Far East was an infantry war.

There is little point trying to transfer technologies that the Japanese didn't have the ability and/or infrastructure to build or maintain. The difficulty that the Japanese had in trying to copy the 40mm Bofors captured from the British is evidence of that.

The other significant gain would be in training. The Luftwaffe in the first half of the war were comfortably ahead of the rest of the world in the use of the finger four tactics, at sea the use of Submarines against merchant and support vessels as well as the use of the Wolf Pack at sea could easily have had significant success in the vast spaces of the Pacific. Can you imagine the impact on the USA if the second German submarine assault known as the 'Second Happy Time' had been co-ordinated with an attack on the West Coast by Japanese Submarine's?

 

[The Basket]

The Japanese had plenty of naval experience which the Germans didn't have. So torpedoes and carrier experience would have been good swap.

The question is the BF 109 is much faster than the Zero in the 1940 time frame. So based purely as an interceptor then why choose slower?

Long range is sorted by the Me 110.

Japanese did have smg but it wasn't built in numbers.

The tripartite pact was not signed until September 1940 so any Zero transfer would happen after that event so nah. Why have Zeroes when you can have Fw 190?

The only reason to take on Zeroes would be for the Graf Zeppelin and thats not a bad shout.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Had Japan just waited

Germany was limited principally by:

1) Lack of critical metal alloying elements
2) Lack of fuel
3) Poor strategic planning
4) Terrible technological and scientific management
5) A reliance on imported-foreign/forced labour

Licensing foreign designs would potentially circumvent (but not solve) #3 & 4 in the very short term. Thats about it.

Winning the war would have involved solving #3 & 4 in the mid 30`s, then planning your way around #1,2 & 5.

Japanese engineers did a good job of managing their own moderately similar situation, importing their solutions to their own problems
does not solve Germany`s issues... much as I do like Japanese WW2 aviation stuffs: (Zero engine)

View attachment 598245

That's a seriously big casting.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey NevadaK,

re: Japanese aviation fuel quality

Somewhere in the DTIC intelligence reports there is mention that the IJAF (in particular) and land based IJN units had problems with getting enough of the higher quality fuel supplies out to the islands. It is not that the Japanese did not have high grade (at least 93-100 octane) it was more a problem with getting it to the front. Between the US aircraft and submarines, the supply problem became quite serious, earlier than most people realize. It became bad enough that in order to have enough fuel to operate, the air units would blend lower grade (~motor pool) fuel with the available aviation stocks, reducing the performance number. And due to the reduced performance number, the air units sometimes had to modify the engines to allow their operation on the lower grade fuel. I have never seen specific examples of what was actually done to the engines, but this is a known work-around, and it was mentioned 'frequently' by some of the Japanese soldiers/officers/pilots during the post-war debriefs.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

The tripartite pact was not signed until September 1940 so any Zero transfer would happen after that event so nah.

So you would think, however (just for example) Daimler-Benz had begun making their own signed agreements with the Japanese regardling licence building of the DB 601 in Japan as early as October 1937. (see Chapter 2, Reference #220 in my book).

 

[The Basket]

Germans sold their own grandmothers for a quick buck.
Don't mean Japanese did.

Time frame is all wrong. Germans got 109F and Fw 190 and Me 210 by 1940 in the pipeline and you want to sell them a very slow week old egg sandwich? When will the Zero be ready for mass production? 1943? A 335mph fighter in 1943?

You don't like the Luftwaffe much!

 

[tomo pauk]

Hey NevadaK,

re: Japanese aviation fuel quality

Somewhere in the DTIC intelligence reports there is mention that the IJAF (in particular) and land based IJN units had problems with getting enough of the higher quality fuel supplies out to the islands. It is not that the Japanese did not have high grade (at least 93-100 octane) it was more a problem with getting it to the front. Between the US aircraft and submarines, the supply problem became quite serious, earlier than most people realize. It became bad enough that in order to have enough fuel to operate, the air units would blend lower grade (~motor pool) fuel with the available aviation stocks, reducing the performance number. And due to the reduced performance number, the air units sometimes had to modify the engines to allow their operation on the lower grade fuel. I have never seen specific examples of what was actually done to the engines, but this is a known work-around, and it was mentioned 'frequently' by some of the Japanese soldiers/officers/pilots during the post-war debriefs.

Shinpachi - could you please chime in with regards to actual stocks % of aviation fuel (87 oct, 91/92 oct etc) in warehuses and/or at remote locations?

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Germans sold their own grandmothers for a quick buck.
Don't mean Japanese did.

Time frame is all wrong. Germans got 109F and Fw 190 and Me 210 by 1940 in the pipeline and you want to sell them a very slow week old egg sandwich? When will the Zero be ready for mass production? 1943? A 335mph fighter in 1943?

You don't like the Luftwaffe much!

A normal human being would have said: "Oh, thanks I didnt realise the technology exchange had begun years before the signing of the Tripartite act".

 

[The Basket]

A normal human being would have said: "Oh, thanks I didnt realise the technology exchange had begun years before the signing of the Tripartite act".

The exchange happened in ww1 when German colonies became Japanese.

I ain't normal and I don't say thanks to you.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

The exchange happened in ww1 when German colonies became Japanese.

I ain't normal and I don't say thanks to you.

Well thats clearly rubbish as earlier you said nothing could have happened before 1940 because of the Triparate act. So actually
your just desperately backpedalling because your upset someone corrected you.

Secondly, you cant just say "I`m not normal" as a disclaimer then proceed to be rude and behave like a 12 year old brat.

Embarrasing. But regardless of your refusal to act with any decorum - I WILL thank YOU .. for reminding me why I keep promsing
myself to never bother contributing to forums.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I still say if there's anything Germany can use from Japan it's naval aviation. Order an aircraft carrier from a Japanese yard, along with aircraft. Germany has already violated all its treaty obligations, so one more won't matter. This is how Germany gets its A6M Zeros.

1936, Germany secretly orders a second unit of Japan's Hiryu class. The ship is completed in June 1939, and sails with a Japanese crew on an apparent good will visit to Germany. Ship is transferred to the German navy. A5M will be swapped for A6M in 1941-42.

Of course the more exciting version of this is Germany's carrier isn't completed until 1940 or 1941, and now Germany needs to get past the RN to get it home. This carrier would have A6M onboard.

 

[tomo pauk]

...

Embarrasing. But regardless of your refusal to act with any decorum - I WILL thank YOU .. for reminding me why I keep promsing
myself to never bother contributing to forums.

Calum, FWIW - there is a lot of forum members that appreciate your input, myself included.

There is always the 'ignore member' option to smooth things out. Worked for me flawlessly.

 

[The Basket]

Well thats clearly rubbish as earlier you said nothing could have happened before 1940 because of the Triparate act. So actually
your just desperately backpedalling because your upset someone corrected you.

Secondly, you cant just say "I`m not normal" as a disclaimer then proceed to be rude and behave like a 12 year old brat.

Embarrasing. But regardless of your refusal to act with any decorum - I WILL thank YOU .. for reminding me why I keep promsing
myself to never bother contributing to forums.

Are you asking me out on a date? I am married but a nice meal and a glass of wine and who knows where it may lead.

 

[The Basket]

Calum, FWIW - there is a lot of forum members that appreciate your input, myself included.

There is always the 'ignore member' option to smooth things out. Worked for me flawlessly.

Hahaha.
What laugh. Can you confirm me a time when the Japanese did any transfer of technology to Germany before the Tripartite pact.

I know what you mean as I ignore you at every opportunity too.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Hahaha.
What laugh. Can you confirm me a time when the Japanese did any transfer of technology to Germany before the Tripartite pact.

I know what you mean as I ignore you at every opportunity too.

Japan has no technology the Germans would want. You need demand as well as supply.

Maybe Long Lance torpedoes? The Germans might like to see the Kaidai-type submarine submarines?

 

[The Basket]

We you see Giving the Zero to Germany is the Japanese transferring technology to Germany.

Not Germany transferring technology to Japan. Although there is plenty of evidence of Japan having examples of the latest German fighters.

The Molotov Ribbentrop pact was quite a shock to the Japanese as Germany has an alliance with Japans greatest enemy. Also IJN secrecy was very tight so highly unlikely to offer any tech.

The Japanese accepted any tech from anywhere if it benefited them.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Quit acting like a bunch of Kindergartners.

Keep it civil. Everyone!