A6M - Germany Japan Technology Exchange Missed Opportunity?

[The Basket]

The Hiryu/Soryu was made out of paper mache. It would not survive day one in European waters.

Without radar our any armour or strong structure its asking for it. Yikes. Light and vulnerable.

Shokaku....maybe.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Are you asking me out on a date? I am married but a nice meal and a glass of wine and who knows where it may lead.

To correct your statement you made that the technology exhange between Germany and Japan started in WW1,
at that time Germany and Japan were at war with eachother, and had been in opposite alliances since 1900. However I have
no idea if that was your little clever joke as you dont seem to be behaving particuarly seriously.

Yes you may read the documents detailing the discussions between Germany and Japan in aero engines in 1937 here:

Imperial War Museum Archives, GDC-Collection, GDC-11/381 — "RLM Misc Reports on DB600", 1937/38/39
{the particular letter is headed "9. Juli 1938 Betrifft" although the discussions elsewhere in the RLM file begin a over year before that}

Daimler actually agreed to "donate" half of all payments from Japan to the Reich, so this was with full Govt knowledge, involvement and approval.

Germany was very interested in Japan contributing in reciprocation, but principally to secure supplies of Tungsten. It would be a mistake to imagine
that Japan did not have any techological knowledge that was ahead of European practise. They did a lot of VERY clever work with synthetic aviation fuel
manufacture, which the US investigators to Japan after WW2 concluded had been very underestimated in sophistication (US Naval Mission to Japan, Report X-38(N)-1)

Foreign Documents: GDC Collection

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Hiryu/Soryu was made out of paper mache. It would not survive day one in European waters. Without radar our any armour or strong structure its asking for it. Yikes. Light and vulnerable.

Is that true? Designed-in and practical damage control was rubbish, but Japanese carriers have to contend with rough seas. The Germans would have installed radar immediately, maybe selling few units and training to the IJN. I agree, Shokaku would be the better pick. Just getting her home in 1941 would be tricky. Now, if Japan can send some engineers to get Graf Zeppelin designed and executed properly.... but Germans won't think Japan has anything to tell them.

 

[The Basket]

Soryu was made as light as possible and if you know Japanese naval architecture in mid 1930s then thats a big oof. Hiryu came later and at least had some more structure.

The Japanese could have offered their carrier expertise which the Germans sorely lacked.

Plus expertise in big naval guns and njght fighting.

Japan was very effective naval power in the Zero time frame and this is exactly what the Germans lacked.

I know that German auxiliary cruisers were given Japanese floatplanes to operate so its not unheard off.

 

[GrauGeist]

The only German ship that used a Japanese aircraft was the DKM Orion, which operated a Nakajima E8N when it was in the Pacific.

 

[The Basket]

I was going off memory. So I fully accept your answer. Auxiliary crusier blew up in a Japanese port. Not sure which one.

Also the Kormoran crew were said to be carrying Japanese foodstuffs when they were been rescued which gave rise to the idea the IJN had a hand in the sinking of the Sydney.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Japanese could have offered their carrier expertise which the Germans sorely lacked.

I agree. And the timing was good too. 25 November 1936, Japan and Germany sign the Anti-Comintern Pact. Four weeks later on 28 December 1936, the carrier Graf Zeppelin is laid down by Deutsche Werke in Kiel.

At this time (Dec 1936), in addition to operating the large fleet carriers Akagi and Kaga and the smaller carriers Hosho and Ryujo, Japan was building the carriers Soryu (completed Dec 1937) and Hiryu (completed 1939) and about to begin construction of the Shokaku class.

The Japanese had the expertise and the Germans had no carrier experience but had the ship ready to build..... THIS was the opportunity for Germany and Japan to work together. Back to this thread, when Graf Zeppelin was ready, I'm sure Japan would sell some Zeros.

 

[GrauGeist]

*IF* the Germans had the foresight to add carriers to it's fleet, then they should have contracted the Japanese to build their two carriers, DKM Graf Zeppelin and DKM Peter Strasser there at Kure and get them into service well before 1939.

As for a Japanese naval fighter compliment for either carriers, it would have to be the A5M, which was a capable fighter for it's time.

 

[pinsog]

https://wlv.openrepository.com/bits...n-Hough PhD Thesis.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

start on page 163. This will give everyone a little different perspective on the Zero and Oscar. Even the Spitfire IX didn't just have their way with them. The Hurricane was essentially hopeless unless it started with a good altitude advantage. If they started out on equal terms the Hurricane was in deep trouble. If the Hurricane started out with an altitude advantage then it did ok (but what aircraft wouldn't? You can shoot down a P47 with a Gladiator if you drop down on him with a speed advantage and hose the cockpit).

Anyway, read this for yourself starting at page 163.

 

[Shortround6]

The Germans might like to see the Kaidai-type submarine submarines?

From Wiki

Kaidai I (I-51 class)

I-51 in 1924
Project number S22. The prototype for the class. The sole Kaidai I, I-51, was based on World War I-era German submarines. She was completed in 1924, refitted with new engines in 1932 and scrapped in 1941. I-51 never saw combat.


Granted the later ones were better.

However the Germans in WW I had built three of the U-139 class (1900 tons surfaced)
which were derived from the U-151 class (7 built) of about 1500 tons surfaced.

Not a lot to see from the German perspective.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I wonder if V-1s could have been launched from the I-400 class sub.

 

[Shortround6]

You might be able to launch, actually hitting anything smaller than a county (not country) might be a trick though.
Early V-1s needed a fair amount of preparation and even when fired from fixed concrete ramps accuracy was not great, firing from a submarine that may not know it's own location (100 miles or 110 miles off the coast? 10 miles north or south of the planned location?) and the sub doesn't have a lot of time to figure it out.
Even if the rolling and pitching don't affect things.

Getting within sight of land can help fix location, it also means greater chance of discovery from anti-sub patrols.

Best that can be hoped for is to divert more equipement/men to home defence after a few V-1s make random hits somewhere.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I wonder if V-1s could have been launched from the I-400 class sub.

I'd say yes. The launch rail of the post-war sub launched V-1 derivatives looks just like what could be fitted to an I-400.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Yokosuka MXY7 Model 43a was intended to be catapault-launched from subs.

 

[Shortround6]

The USN in 1946-48 had several advantages over the Germans and Japanese in 1943-44.

One was that they had established the Loran navigation system that allowed for a more precise and faster location fix than using sextants or any other non electronic navigation equipment. So the sub had a more precise location of firing point.
2nd was that the US by that time had much more advanced guidance systems/auto pilots than the Germans were using (at least in the early versions), Both countries experimented with a variety of different guidance systems with varying degrees of success.

Not saying the US system would have actually worked in war time but it had a much better chance of lading within a mile of the intended target than the German versions did.

 

[The Basket]

The problem is how long on the surface must a Japanese sub be on the surface for to launch? That's not going to be healthy.

The Germans....alleged...try to go for the Mitsubishi Ki-46 under licence but no sale.

Still heard nothing about the Japanese offering any tech to any other country yet. Odd that.

The Japanese brought licence rights to the DC3 so technology transfers to Japan are very common.

 

[Admiral Beez]

If one wanted to fly a squadron of Zeros from Japanese held territory to Germany could it be done? Pre-Barbarossa with enough money from Germany to Stalin, it may be possible to fly over and refuel in Russia. I don't know if it could be done post-Barbarossa. Maybe send a carrier into the Indian Ocean and fly them to German held North Africa?

With a ferry range per Wikipedia of 3,102 km (1,927 mi, 1,675 nmi) the Zero presents unique opportunities for distant delivery. Though pity the poor chap flying for ten to twelve hours each leg.

 

[ThomasP]

re:"Still heard nothing about the Japanese offering any tech to any other country yet. Odd that."

I agree, it is odd. The only thing that I remember reading (I think) relative to aircraft, is the sale of a few [Japanese] flying boats to foreign countries between the wars (1920s and/or early-1930s???). Does anyone know of anything like that??

[my edit for clarity]

 

[The Basket]

Japan has been taking western gear since the Meji Restoration. The question which has NOT been answered is did the Japanese share technology of a military nature with any other power before the Tripartite Pact?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Japan has been taking western gear since the Meji Restoration. The question which has NOT been answered is did the Japanese share technology of a military nature with any other power before the Tripartite Pact?

I wonder what the Italian general staff would have thought of any Japanese tanks they were supplied. I can see it now, "See Tony, there's nothing inferior about Italian tanks"