AA / AT Guns

Discussion in 'WW2 General' started by stug3, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. stug3

    stug3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Messages:
    854
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    #1 stug3, Jul 24, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
    2cm Anti Aircraft gun in Russia, 1943
    [​IMG]
     
  2. stug3

    stug3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Messages:
    854
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    On an M3 Stuart chassis
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    M8 Armored Car
    [​IMG]
     
  3. stug3

    stug3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Messages:
    854
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
  4. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Sd. Kfz. 7/1
    SdKfz_7-1_gp_einer_Heereseinheit.jpg



    Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-090-3913-04__Russland__Halbkettenfahrzeug_mit_Flak.jpg

    About 800 produced with flakvierling and 1,000 produced with 3.7cm flak.

    Germany used many make shift SP flak such as captured enemy tank with flakvierling ILO turret. Sd.Kfz.7/1 and Sd.Kfz.7/2 were closest thing they had to a standard purpose built weapon.
     
  5. fastmongrel

    fastmongrel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,336
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Motor Mechanic
    Location:
    Lancashire
    Morris C9 self propelled Bofors

    hqdefault.jpg
     
  6. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Typical make shift German SP flak vehicle. Captured tank probably had a damaged turret but was otherwise operational. Field workshop pulled turret off, mounted flakvierling (i.e. quad 20mm) and fashioned gun crew protection using RHA plates salvaged from destroyed Sd.Kfz.250 or Sd.Kfz.251 APC. This vehicle is a relatively well designed conversion so it was probably done in army rear area. Conversions accomplished by division workshops would be more crude.

    flakt34_s.jpg
     
  7. stug3

    stug3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Messages:
    854
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    This thing looks like it could cause some serious damage.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Did they really need 4 guys in that turret?
    [​IMG]
     
  8. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Were guns magazine fed? If so you need additional people to keep changing magazines.

    That's what I've never understood about flakvierling. Why didn't Germany make a belt feed for Flakvierling? Eliminate two loaders and flakvierling mount would probably fit on smaller / less expensive Sd.Kfz.251 APC.
     
  9. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    41,730
    Likes Received:
    517
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Doctor
    Location:
    Portsmouth / Royal Deeside, UK
    Home Page:
    Good stuff!
     
  10. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    HyperWar: The Machine Gun (Vol. I/Part V)
    If 2cm Flak 38 was designed by same people as MG151 and employs identical operating principles then why doesn't the weapon have a belt feed similar to MG-151? Larger 3cm Mk103 cannon employed belt feed so it cannot be because 20mm x 138mmB cartridge was too powerful for belt feed.
     
  11. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,761
    Likes Received:
    793
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    retired Firefighter
    Location:
    Central Florida Highlands
    The 40mm was feed by clips. 4 rounds to a clip like big rifle stripper clip except the Bofors gun took the rounds out of the clip it self and dumped the empty clips out the bottom. It was possible to stick in two clips, one above the other or even start with one 4 round clip, 2 loose rounds and a second 4 round clip just barely in the feed way/guides. Since the gun cycled at about 3 rounds per second a loader per barrel were pretty busy men.

    If they could have a made a belt feed Flak 38 you wouldn't need a flakvierling, just make a twin mount with belt feeds. If you could keep the barrels cool the cyclic rate of fire and the practical rate of fire would be a lot closer. Cycle rate of the twin would be over 800 rounds per minute as long as the belts held out unless the belt feed really slowed the gun down.
     
  12. stug3

    stug3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Messages:
    854
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    Yes, the Bofors 40 mm was magazine fed for the most part. I think some post war naval variants had some kind of mechanised feed but not belt fed.

    The M19 was built on the M24 Chaffee chassis, the post war M42 Duster was built on the M41 Walker Bulldog chassis.

    M42 Duster
    [​IMG]
     
  13. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    #13 davebender, Jul 26, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
    I agree. However they might want four anyway. Fire two at a time and cooling problems should be minimal.

    sidam_l1.jpg

    Personally I like the Italian Sidam turret design. Small one man turret containing only gunner. Belt fed weapons located outside turret. Small size makes it possible to provide turret with decent armor protection. Cannon receivers located outside turret would be protected only against small arms fire.
     
  14. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,761
    Likes Received:
    793
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    retired Firefighter
    Location:
    Central Florida Highlands
    Germans may have stopped work on a Belt feed Flak 38 because they were working on mounting the MK 103 guns on the Flak 38 mounts.
     
  15. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Heer have preferred 20mm automatic cannon from 1915 right up to the present day. Otherwise armored vehicles from Panzer II through Marder IFV series would have 30mm autocannon rather then 20mm autocannon. I cannot explain this preference but I think we can rule out plans for a switch to 30mm.

    German navy was a different matter. They wanted twin 30mm light flak on U boats. Perhaps it's because they had to deal with B24 bombers and other such large aircraft attacking at low level.
     
  16. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,761
    Likes Received:
    793
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    retired Firefighter
    Location:
    Central Florida Highlands
    Rheinmetall had a contract for 2000 guns and Gustloffwerke of Suhl and one for 1000 guns, all to be completed by March 1945 although it is doubtful anywhere near that many were finished. Mauserwerke and a model of their own as did Brunserwerke. A limited number of 3cm flakvierling 103/38 were also made. The Guns were a bit too powerful for the mount/s and excessive vibration hurt accuracy, even after the sight was given a spring suspension.

    30_mm_flakvierling_103_38_164.jpg
     
  17. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Were those army or navy contracts?

    November 1943. 287 x Type XXI submarines ordered.
    Each boat was supposed to have 4 x 30mm AA guns
    .....Two twin turrets.
    1,148 30mm autocannon required for Type XXI submarines.

    German Schnellboot carried autocannon up to 3.7cm in size. I'll hazard a guess the high tech stabilized LM44U twin turret designed for Type XXI submarine was also intended to replace 3.7cm single mount on S boats. Germany built 230 S boats and had hundreds more on order.

    German navy ordered 15 Flottentorpedoboot 1939 class. Each boat originally equipped with 4 obsolete 3.7cm C/30 weapons. Another good candidate for the LM44U twin 3cm turret.

    These installations only scratch the surface of naval requirements. Most German naval vessels completed prior to 1942 had obsolete 3.7cm C/30 weapons which must be replaced.
     
  18. Civettone

    Civettone Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,821
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    London, UK
    Home Page:
    That is how the Flakvierling worked. It fired two guns at a time. Firing all four was exceptional.

    If you do not have a gun laying calculator or FCS, you need to have a couple of extra men for spotting and range calculation. And of course elevation and traverse were operated by two different men.

    Kris
     
  19. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,761
    Likes Received:
    793
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    retired Firefighter
    Location:
    Central Florida Highlands
    The 30mm guns intended for the S boats and MK XXI subs were the Kreighoff 30mm MK 303 gun which used a different round than the MK 103, a 30mm X 210 case instead of 30 X 183B and about 9-10mm fatter through the body of the case, ammo and the guns used to develop the post war Czech M53 gun and ammunition.

    Looks like the MK 103 guns were mostly for the army, although some Navy use was probably intended as the Navy used it's share of MK 38 guns.
     
  20. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Person operating rangefinder doesn't need to be in gun turret. Could be vehicle commander located in his own cupola.

    While stationary the vehicle driver could serve as a spotter. Or you could have a dedicated spotter in his own cupola. All connected by vehicle intercom so you don't need to be in physical contact.
     
Loading...

Share This Page