About strafing Aces

[tyrodtom]

In a ground strafing you're shooting at a stationary target while you are moving at 250-350 mph, and very close to the ground. Plus every weapon the enemy has available is trying to shoot you down.
While some victories in the air may involve just sneeking up on a aircraft that doesn't even know you're there.
He flies straight and level, not a difficult shot at all, and nobody is shooting at you.

 

[GregP]

Very many people got shot down thinking nobody was going to be shooting at them while they were shooting at a potential victim ...

The people shooting at the shooters were usually called wingmen.

 

[glennasher]

Very many people got shot down thinking nobody was going to be shooting at them while they were shooting at a potential victim ...

The people shooting at the shooters were usually called wingmen.

IIRC, weren't there cases of strafing aircraft shooting themselves down? Bullets ricocheting off the ground, and back into the air, and the strafer's aircraft flying into them? Or, was that later in Korea?

 

[Clayton Magnet]

How would you even confirm a strafing "kill"? Every parked airplane hit with machine gun rounds isn't going to instantly explode, and I would suspect that late war German aircraft would have often been parked without fuel, due to the scarcity of it, so probably wouldn't readily burn either.
The whole idea of strafing "aces" seems like an exercise in morale boosting, for the guys that wanted in on the party.
I am not saying it wasn't an excellent use of resources, because knocking them out on the ground was just as useful to the war effort, but recording them as "kills" seems really dubious to me.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

How would you even confirm a strafing "kill"? Every parked airplane hit with machine gun rounds isn't going to instantly explode, and I would suspect that late war German aircraft would have often been parked without fuel, due to the scarcity of it, so probably wouldn't readily burn either.
The whole idea of strafing "aces" seems like an exercise in morale boosting, for the guys that wanted in on the party.
I am not saying it wasn't an excellent use of resources, because knocking them out on the ground was just as useful to the war effort, but recording them as "kills" seems really dubious to me.

Giving some sort of credit probably encouraged destroying the planes even as the AAA was a bitch.

 

[tyrodtom]

Parking them on the field with empty tanks make them useless for any quick reaction use.

Once Doolittle made it a policy to release the fighters to search and destroy, surely after a while the Luftwaffe base commanders started dispersing the fighters, and maybe left some useless duds out in plane sight to draw the allied Jabos.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Sidebar:
Rickenbacker's 26 "kills" (internet presumes a whole lot) included two grounded balloons.
When I was secretary of the aces assn, I computed that by WW II standards his score was 7 and change. Lots of OOCs (that apparently he could confirm as squadron CO) and the all-time howler: "Fokker last seen in vertical bank."

Who of the WWII aces really had the highest score? I know that Mannock proponents claim he out scored Bishop by a wide margin.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

maybe left some useless duds out in plane sight to draw the allied Jabos.

Or a couple of these; I wonder how many P-47 pilots punched a few .5" holes in a plywood "Stuka", and marked another kill on the squadron tally board.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

Who of the WWII aces really had the highest score? I know that Mannock proponents claim he out scored Bishop by a wide margin.

I assume you meant WWI? Too late to change anything now, Richthofen got 80 for the Central Powers, and Fonck got 75 for the Allies. Those numbers will never officially change.

 

[MiTasol]

How would you even confirm a strafing "kill"? Every parked airplane hit with machine gun rounds isn't going to instantly explode, and I would suspect that late war German aircraft would have often been parked without fuel, due to the scarcity of it, so probably wouldn't readily burn either.
The whole idea of strafing "aces" seems like an exercise in morale boosting, for the guys that wanted in on the party.
I am not saying it wasn't an excellent use of resources, because knocking them out on the ground was just as useful to the war effort, but recording them as "kills" seems really dubious to me.

An aircraft with no fuel, which has had fuel recently, is far more likely to explode than one with full tanks which will burn until the fuel is down to a point where the fuel air ratio is around 15:1.

 

[DrumBob]

I know that the 8th AAF began to give kill credits for planes destroyed on the ground, whereas the 9th did not. The reason was because strafing parked aircraft was an extremely dangerous job, as we all know, so it was a a morale booster and an incentive for pilots who had maybe one or two air-to-air kills, or guys who had none.

My friend, Bill Hendrian, of the 352nd FG told me his "big day" was when he destroyed two ME-110s on the ground. I think he had other ground kills as well. When I asked him how many planes he destroyed total, he told me seven, although his official air-to-air score was one and two halves. I know he gave one away to his wingman.

 

[Luft.4]

How would you even confirm a strafing "kill"?

The Luftwaffe had regulations which explain how they saw a ground abschuss.

 

[drgondog]

That was General Kenney's approach in the Pacific. The more aircraft you destroy on the ground the less you have to fight in the air.

From day one he made destroying airfields and their aircraft a priority.

I agree, but.

Reluctant Poster said:
When most of the strafing claims were made the Luftwaffe was finished. Just like sinking immobile Japanese ships at Kure where over 100 young Americans lost their lives for no purpose. Basically higher echelon blood lust.

That is a little too strong - The whole idea was to destroy the Luftwaffe (or Japanese aircraft, prior to the Invasion. Doolitlle incented pilots to strafe airfields to kill aircraft on the ground and in return he offered the same credit as an air to air victory.

My father's group had highest ground score total for all air forces (at least known to me). They lost 90 Mustangs from flak, 40 air to air for 352 air/502 ground total. No German fighter came close to him, but he scored four belly landings, one behind enemy lines where he was picked up and rescued - all flak caused ranging from train, one airfield and two marshaling yards.

 

[GregP]

IIRC, weren't there cases of strafing aircraft shooting themselves down? Bullets ricocheting off the ground, and back into the air, and the strafer's aircraft flying into them? Or, was that later in Korea?

Can't recall those, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen ...

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I assume you meant WWI? Too late to change anything now, Richthofen got 80 for the Central Powers, and Fonck got 75 for the Allies. Those numbers will never officially change.

I understand that. I am curious to know if anyone has done actual comparison to actual enemy loss records

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I agree, but.

Reluctant Poster said:
When most of the strafing claims were made the Luftwaffe was finished. Just like sinking immobile Japanese ships at Kure where over 100 young Americans lost their lives for no purpose. Basically higher echelon blood lust.

That is a little too strong - The whole idea was to destroy the Luftwaffe (or Japanese aircraft, prior to the Invasion. Doolitlle incented pilots to strafe airfields to kill aircraft on the ground and in return he offered the same credit as an air to air victory.

My father's group had highest ground score total for all air forces (at least known to me). They lost 90 Mustangs from flak, 40 air to air for 352 air/502 ground total. No German fighter came close to him, but he scored four belly landings, one behind enemy lines where he was picked up and rescued - all flak caused ranging from train, one airfield and two marshaling yards.

I am specifically referring to the end of the war which dramatically inflates the ground claim totals . Of the 6796 claims made in the ETO, 3703 were made in one month, April 1945. That's is 60% of the total. The second highest month is 527 in, coincidently, April 1944 which is a bit of an outlier.