About strafing Aces

[GregP]

Hmmm. WW I ballons,
Airborne(not really moving)
manned
armed (usually not in the balloon but in ground batteries).

They may have counted them in WWI, but in WWII? I had never considered them. I suppose they might have to be considered. I'd doubt it came up more than a very few times, if at all in WWII, but without research, I wouldn't know.

You come up with some good ones, Shortround!

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Somewhere there's an F-22 pilot cursing this thread.

 

[glennasher]

I'd pay cash money to see Rob piloting one of those.

Steve Hinton could probably fly one of those, he could pilot a tree stump and make it fly. A train should be easier.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Steve Hinton could probably fly one of those, he could pilot a tree stump and make it fly. A train should be easier.

But Rob's a retired loco driver, and he don't need no stinkin' rails!

 

[SaparotRob]

Sorry. I just steered them. I was a train director and worked the Towers. I had the steering wheel and traffic lights. The locomotive engineer had the gas pedal and brakes.

 

[glennasher]

But Rob's a retired loco driver, and he don't need no stinkin' rails!

One of my stepbrothers is a retired engineer, and so is a nephew, the others in my family are either working on the tracks (track gangs) or an electrician, mostly BNSF.

 

[special ed]

An aircrew for Rob.

 

[Barrett]

They may have counted them in WWI, but in WWII? I had never considered them. I suppose they might have to be considered. I'd doubt it came up more than a very few times, if at all in WWII, but without research, I wouldn't know.

You come up with some good ones, Shortround!

Sidebar:
Rickenbacker's 26 "kills" (internet presumes a whole lot) included two grounded balloons.
When I was secretary of the aces assn, I computed that by WW II standards his score was 7 and change. Lots of OOCs (that apparently he could confirm as squadron CO) and the all-time howler: "Fokker last seen in vertical bank."

 

[tyrodtom]

In the WW1 ballons it was SOP for the observer to jump as soon as he knew he was under attack, and you would too with many hundreds of cubic feet of hydrogen about 10 feet above you.
So of course they had winch the balloon down to put another man, or men in it,
But all it's protective AA was still present, and alert, so anyone attacking a grounded balloon was under even more risk, because the ground gunners could fire wherever they needed to, they didn't need to worry about hitting their own balloon or the observers.

 

[GregP]

Sidebar:
Rickenbacker's 26 "kills" (internet presumes a whole lot) included two grounded balloons.
When I was secretary of the aces assn, I computed that by WW II standards his score was 7 and change. Lots of OOCs (that apparently he could confirm as squadron CO) and the all-time howler: "Fokker last seen in vertical bank."

What is an "OOC?" Curious ...

 

[tyrodtom]

OOC,
Out of control.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

It's better to kill 'em on the ground than in the air.

I'm a Tejano. We took out Santa Anna while they slept at San Jacinto. Every bit as much a victory, and with a lot less sweat.

The problem is that you don't kill pilots. They are more difficult to replace than aircraft. Also 2/3 of the claims were in the last 6 weeks of the war. At that point they were never going to fly again. A waste of young men's lives.

 

[special ed]

War is always a waste of lives.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The problem is that you don't kill pilots. They are more difficult to replace than aircraft. Also 2/3 of the claims were in the last 6 weeks of the war. At that point they were never going to fly again. A waste of young men's lives.

The pilots were already being shot down in droves, clearly; the training falloff between Feb 44 and Feb 45 speaks to that.

If the enemy fliers are on the ground, attack them there. So you don't kill so many of his pilots? Okay. They're still on the ground, and have fewer airplanes if they decide to fight later. Don't half-ass it. Enemy's on the ropes? Great, shoot up his gear.

As S special ed points out, all war is a waste of life. How many pilots died strafing airfields vs how many doggies died fighting through bocage?

 

[special ed]

 

[GregP]

View attachment 802709

Here's one of my favorites:

 

[Reluctant Poster]

The pilots were already being shot down in droves, clearly; the training falloff between Feb 44 and Feb 45 speaks to that.

If the enemy fliers are on the ground, attack them there. So you don't kill so many of his pilots? Okay. They're still on the ground, and have fewer airplanes if they decide to fight later. Don't half-ass it. Enemy's on the ropes? Great, shoot up his gear.

As S special ed points out, all war is a waste of life. How many pilots died strafing airfields vs how many doggies died fighting through bocage?

When most of the strafing claims were made the Luftwaffe was finished. Just like sinking immobile Japanese ships at Kure where over 100 young Americans lost their lives for no purpose. Basically higher echelon blood lust.

 

[MiTasol]

The pilots were already being shot down in droves, clearly; the training falloff between Feb 44 and Feb 45 speaks to that.

If the enemy fliers are on the ground, attack them there. So you don't kill so many of his pilots? Okay. They're still on the ground, and have fewer airplanes if they decide to fight later. Don't half-ass it. Enemy's on the ropes? Great, shoot up his gear.

As S special ed points out, all war is a waste of life. How many pilots died strafing airfields vs how many doggies died fighting through bocage?

That was General Kenney's approach in the Pacific. The more aircraft you destroy on the ground the less you have to fight in the air.

From day one he made destroying airfields and their aircraft a priority.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

When most of the strafing claims were made the Luftwaffe was finished. Just like sinking immobile Japanese ships at Kure where over 100 young Americans lost their lives for no purpose. Basically higher echelon blood lust.

There's some hindsightium happening here, in that we didn't know so much about their manning situation that would allow us to say, "No worries, it's a bunch of -109s on the field, but they don't have the pilots, so let's fly home and we'll hit the pub tonight."

Costly? Perhaps. But better prudence than complacency. We knew they were mostly finished in 1945 -- but a big part of that finishing job was done in spring 1944 once Doolittle released homeward-bound fighters for strafing. Even if we didn't kill pilots that way, they had to wait for replacement aircraft instead of flying daily. Reducing your enemy's sortie rate is an important factor in air battle.

 

[Mainly28s]

I know this may go against the grain, but I don't see how someone shooting a plane on the ground can claim to be an "ace", as all they did is shoot at stationary targets. There was very little being better than the enemy pilot involved. I do agree, it was dangerous (hell, the AA defences were quite viciously ferocious), but it's not quite the same as actual air-to-air combat, is it?