Advanced designs

[Twitch]

Let's not forget the variation of engine thrusts at work here. The Jumo 004-B of 1,980-lbs. thrust was the initial one to be used but the proposed final power was to be the Heinkel 109- 011 or HeS 11. Not the 2,460-lb thrust engine but the eventual 3,520 lb- thrust turbine that was being worked up to production viability. The P.1101 was among many 2nd generation jets that would have used the HeS 11 in the near future. The power was at hand.

And the reality of things are that the P.1101 was sent to the US and many of its actual components were used in the X-5! It used a 4,900-lb thrust engine and incorporated a variable sweep wing. The P.1101 was not variable in flight. The X-5 maxed out at 650 MPH 60° swept and 605 MPH 20° unswept at 9,892 lbs.

Any speed in the ranges of 650 MPH projected for the P.1101 was at the very onset of the project before modifications and strengthening added weight. See these are the things that reality dictates after best projected estimates are done. Modifications are always needed. But estimating speed with thrust and weight factors that change requires re-assessment of performance. Would a lighter P.1101 with 3,520 lbs thrust have done 650 MPH? Certainly a heavier P.1101 with less thrust wasn't able to.

Here's what I have gleaned on the P.1101 with the bottom line of the design being sound and far from a doodle on paper.

P.1101
Messerschmitt had its P.1101 80% complete when American troops over ran the Oberammergau assembly complex in late April 1945. A Jumo 004B was installed but specs called for the forthcoming He S 011 of greater thrust which was expected to propel the fighter to speeds of 650-670 MPH between 20-23,000 feet with a range of some 930 miles. Weights were estimated at 6,600-7,200 lbs. Armament considered was two or three Mk 108 30 mm cannon and four of the new X-4 air-to-air wire-guided missiles. Of note were the swept wings that could be adjusted on the ground for variable sweep settings of 35 or 45 degrees. Their span was only 23.5 feet.

The P.1101 design lacked only an engine powerful enough to propel it when its layout was drawn up in 1942. It sat on the drawing board until the HeS evolved. It was problem-ridden in its early stages, as are most prototypes. Modifications continued until the end though and the plane would have been easy to maintain with good access to the one turbojet. Originally a 650-670 MPH speed was anticipated but estimates of about 550-612 MPH were calculated after all the modifications and strengthening changes were made. The five Mk 108 30 mm cannon in the nose caused a space problem adjacent to the intake and spent shell chutes were problematic. Finally weighing 8,966 lbs., the P.1101 would have climbed at 4,370 FPM and had a maximum range of 932 miles and a 45,933-foot ceiling.

The Bell X-5 high-speed research craft was designed directly from the captured P.1101's layout. Certainly the X-5 proved the design in its flights.

The P.1101 is another plane that could have soon been in production and would have been a concern for the Allies.

 

[davparlr]

Let's not forget the variation of engine thrusts at work here. The Jumo 004-B of 1,980-lbs. thrust was the initial one to be used but the proposed final power was to be the Heinkel 109- 011 or HeS 11. Not the 2,460-lb thrust engine but the eventual 3,520 lb- thrust turbine that was being worked up to production viability. The P.1101 was among many 2nd generation jets that would have used the HeS 11 in the near future. The power was at hand.

And the reality of things are that the P.1101 was sent to the US and many of its actual components were used in the X-5! It used a 4,900-lb thrust engine and incorporated a variable sweep wing. The P.1101 was not variable in flight. The X-5 maxed out at 650 MPH 60° swept and 605 MPH 20° unswept at 9,892 lbs.

Any speed in the ranges of 650 MPH projected for the P.1101 was at the very onset of the project before modifications and strengthening added weight. See these are the things that reality dictates after best projected estimates are done. Modifications are always needed. But estimating speed with thrust and weight factors that change requires re-assessment of performance. Would a lighter P.1101 with 3,520 lbs thrust have done 650 MPH? Certainly a heavier P.1101 with less thrust wasn't able to.

Here's what I have gleaned on the P.1101 with the bottom line of the design being sound and far from a doodle on paper.

P.1101
Messerschmitt had its P.1101 80% complete when American troops over ran the Oberammergau assembly complex in late April 1945. A Jumo 004B was installed but specs called for the forthcoming He S 011 of greater thrust which was expected to propel the fighter to speeds of 650-670 MPH between 20-23,000 feet with a range of some 930 miles. Weights were estimated at 6,600-7,200 lbs. Armament considered was two or three Mk 108 30 mm cannon and four of the new X-4 air-to-air wire-guided missiles. Of note were the swept wings that could be adjusted on the ground for variable sweep settings of 35 or 45 degrees. Their span was only 23.5 feet.

The P.1101 design lacked only an engine powerful enough to propel it when its layout was drawn up in 1942. It sat on the drawing board until the HeS evolved. It was problem-ridden in its early stages, as are most prototypes. Modifications continued until the end though and the plane would have been easy to maintain with good access to the one turbojet. Originally a 650-670 MPH speed was anticipated but estimates of about 550-612 MPH were calculated after all the modifications and strengthening changes were made. The five Mk 108 30 mm cannon in the nose caused a space problem adjacent to the intake and spent shell chutes were problematic. Finally weighing 8,966 lbs., the P.1101 would have climbed at 4,370 FPM and had a maximum range of 932 miles and a 45,933-foot ceiling.

The Bell X-5 high-speed research craft was designed directly from the captured P.1101's layout. Certainly the X-5 proved the design in its flights.

The P.1101 is another plane that could have soon been in production and would have been a concern for the Allies.

The P.1101 concept was a sound concept and eventually made it into several successful aircraft. However, Bell had proposed to the AF to convert the X-5 to a fighter. To make the X-5 a fighter, the aircraft would have to be completely redesigned. This effort was deemed unnecessary due to advances in conventional aircraft design. I am sure the P.1102 would have faced the same level of redesign and would have been delayed significantly therefore would have not appeared very quickly.

 

[Twitch]

Here's a design that did not reach fruition during the war but was carried on by the Russian in post-war times.

FW J. P.011-45
If we look at the P.5 layout concept we note the engine mounting at the extreme lower, forward fuselage. The J. P.011-45 employed this configuration. It was to be a 3-man night fighter with the HeS 011 engines with 2,866 lbs. thrust each side-by-side at the bottom of the 44.3-foot fuselage. Swept at 30-degrees the 46.25-foot wings attached at mid-fuselage. Speed was projected as 587 MPH. Two MK 108 30 mm cannon fired from the fuselage nose and two MK 108 30 mm cannon fired upwards from the rear fuselage Schräge Musik style. Four MK 108 30mm cannon all firing forward in the nose was an alternate arrangement.

It must be noted that in post-war Russia early MiG and Yak jets were all designed in this manner. This captured blueprint with minor changes became the MiG I-320 flying in 1949! It had two side-by-side seats but with a more powerful engine thrust of 5,952 lbs. each it reached 677 MPH.

 

[delcyros]

I do not question that the soviets used german designs for testbeds on their own. But according to all I know, no Me-P1101 ever was to be equipped with Jumo-004 engines. All pictures of the V-1 prototype captured at plant Oberammergau strikingly point to a single He-S011 AV-prototype engine. One of the few captured intact! (compare attached pictures showing Jumo004, HeS011 and MeP1101 V1).
You made a point regarding a light plane may reach higher speeds. This is valid but not for the sample I gave: Both design datasheets are for P1101 with He-S011 B engine (1300 Kp nominal thrust). Both datasheets give a very comparable take off weight: 4050 Kg (8.918 lbs) for 30.8.44 (II) and 4062 Kg (8.944 lbs) for 22.2.45. And since nothing else is changed in these studys, except for the mathematical system used, we should pay attention to 71 mp/h difference in calculations. Just my opinion.

 

[Twitch]

I dunno- that picture has always been labeled as a 004-B engine in every place I've seen it too. !!??

 

[delcyros]

I have read this too. However, it isn´t a Jumo, obviously. According to the HM-records one HeS011 atrap and a AV-prototype engine were delivered to Messerschmidt and since we do have photographic evidence we do know better.
The differences between HeS011 and Jumo-004 are substantial, different weight, different size, different airflow and performances. I doubt that it would be an easy task to exchange the engines for the Me P1101 V1 prototype without further redesign (centre of weight shifts a lot).
It should also be taken into consideration that the authors mistakenly mixed up Ta-183 with Me P1101. The first Ta-183 prototypes should be powered by Jumo-004D. But despite the claim that the Ta-183 was sheduled for maiden flight in may or june 1945 I so far, haven´t seen any proof that even construction of the first prototype did began by wars end. The Ta-183 probably never left design stage.

 

[Twitch]

The P.1101 was designed for the Heinkel Hirth powerplant not the Junkers that is positive. I have to look at a large sclae pic of the plane and try to identify that turbine. Thing is, similarities and differences aside many prototypes slated for one engine actually got an interim engine of a different manufacture.

The Ta 183 did not progress beyond the drafting tble and mock up and wind tunnel model stage by May-June-45. The P.1101 WAS going to be ready to fly by then though.

 

[delcyros]

I checked the Me P 1101 pics once more. It seems that the pictures of the prototype taken at Oberammergau/Germany following wars end show another engine than the pictures taken from this plane in the US. Both show a He S 011 engine (notice the diagonal compressor with the "step" in shape) but the pictures of the plane at Bell show an individual engine with longer jet needle.(this longer jet needle was typical for HeS011 AV6 and later models of the turbine according to photographic evidence) Other pictures show the airframe to be equipped with an US engine.
I do not know how many HeS011 engines were captured by the US at wars end (I do firmly believe that some of the HeS011 have been assembled AFTER wars end under US controll) and if they were modified or not.

 

[delcyros]

By the way... since this nearly is a Luft_46 discussion, what plane do You prefer? Me P1101 or Ta 183? Please explain.
Keep notice that neither plane would become a serial fighter. The competition was won by the Ju-EF128.

 

[Twitch]

I agree upon close inspection that the engine is a Heinkel, which is actually what it supposed to be.

The P.1101 was 80% getting near flight. It was originally conceived in 1942 as a Messerschmitt project to explore wing sweep increments not as a competitor in the February 1945 emergency fighter program announced by the RLM.

Blohn Voss had the P.215, Heinkel had the P.1078, Junkers the P.128 and FW the P.183. The P.1101 preceeded all the rest in concept and to actual tangibility as a real aircraft.

The P.128 did not "win" the RLM award. No one did. The RLM had however, provided limited funds to Messerschmitt since the P.1101 was in a tangible form rather than buleprint stage as the others were. After the P.1101's projected performance was considered less than desired the RLM gave some financial support to Han Mullthopp's P.183 design.

Beyond the P.1101 becoming the Bell X-5, another Messerschmitt design, the P.1111, became the Northrop X-4.

I feel the Multhopp fighter was ultimitely the best design. The performance estimates were conservative and the layout proved viable in copies and refined versions that actually flew.

 

[delcyros]

Correct, no one won the contract. However Junkers EF-128 was officially choosen for further development (something we cannot say for the Ta-183) in april 1945. My personal estimation is that the Ta-183 in the variant shown as Version II would be a deathtrap (no slots or wingboundary layers, instable tail design, worse buffeting in the frontal region, high aspect ratio without anhedral or dihedral, high wingsweep ergo very worse low speed handling and comparably challanging stall behaviour). The P1101 is more advanced in some aspects but not the best. The proposal of Henschel (P135?) would be my personal favourite.

 

[cls12vg30]

Anybody remember the Microsoft game Crimson Skies? It was pretty big a few years ago, there were PC and Xbox versions. That game featured a bunch of strange piston-driven aircraft designs, some obviously based on planes you might see at Luft46.

 

[Twitch]

Well the RLM put up Reichsmarks to FW for further development. Never heard they gave Heinkel squat. You know the situation for Heinkel anyway, he was totally out of favor by Milch and high RLM bigshots. He only got the He 162 contract because he had a mock up.

Multhopp has always maintained that he would have made modifications to the P.183 design along the way as development would have played out if the project had reached fruition. He may have lowered the horizontal stabilizer a bit in a final form but why do people believe the T tail so unstable when there are lots of planes since that have flown with them?

So here's something from the Russians-

M.I.GUDKOV
This early design carried over to post-war Soviet layouts in Yak, MiGs, and LaGGs featuring the turbojet slung below the pilot making a fat front fuselage section and slim taper to the tail. Gudov was a principle in the design of the LaGG-3. The 1943 prototype design implementing the forthcoming 1,540 lb. thrust Lyulka jet engine, the RTD-1/VDR-2, was the USSR's first serious attempt at a jet powered fighter with no influence from the later-captured German data. In fact save for the jet engine placement, the rest of the plane borrowed heavily from the LaGG-3.

Since the jet engine was not expected for two more year's work was halted on the Gu-VRD's ambitious design, which was never concluded.

The non-swept wings were to span 31.1 feet and the rotund fuselage would have been 29.5 feet long. Stated weight of 4,950 lbs. was empty with about 6,500 lbs. loaded. A maximum speed of 559 MPH was estimated but seems optimistic as the post-war La-150 that bore out this design did only 500 MPH. Range was calculated at 435 miles. A 20 mm cannon and a 12.7 mm machine gun was the conceived armament.

Had it seen production with the puny jet engine it could have probably hit 500 MPH but would have been eclipsed by German jets in combat.

 

[HealzDevo]

Cool photos in this thread.

 

[kool kitty89]

The P.1101 was fitted with an allison engine?! I dindn't know this, from what I read the craft was too damaged to be completed so Bell built the X-5 over from scratch and added some improvements. Which allison engine did it use the J33 or J35?

And Luft-46 also says that tests were to be done using 004 engines until 011's were available.

I think it would have been better to stick with twin-engined designs earlier on and concentrete on class I (and maby class II) engine development. Have Heinkel continue development of the excelent Hes-30 (109-006) which had been making rapid progress in late '41 early 1942 and may have even been ready for production before the 004B had been ready. (certainly before the 003) The 004H would have been a good class-2 design, though I'm not sure how far along it was.

Ohain and Heinkel should have worked on a single-engined project, either using a scaled-up HeS-8 or a further scaled-up HeS-6 (either would bee about double the size and weight) Such developments would be far more practical than the HeS-011. A fusalage mounted design like the Vampire, P-80, He 178, and Gloster G.40 is much better for centrifugal engines. Perhaps a scaled-up HeS-30 would also have been a good route. Production and continued improvement of the HeS-6 may have been a good intrim design to be used on a modified He 280.(similar to the Meteor's mis-wing mounting to give adequate ground clearance, but still low enough to keep exaust away from the fin-rudder assembly) Or maby Ohain should have switched to an axial tuebine like whittle used since it would be small enough to use turbine alloys economicaly and could be made hollow for air cooling,(which would allow higher RPM, operating temperatures, and efficiency) as well as allowing an easier strait-through arrangement like in the Halford H-1 Goblin design. (though for an uncooled design a radial turbine is best as seen in the higher thrust and RPM capable compared to Whittle's early designs prior to the availabillity of Nimonic 80)

On the Gu-VRD design, the fusalge and nose was very streamlined and had a thrust/weight of more than .28. What you wrote on the engine is not true. The original design would have been ready (2-stage centrifugal with 700kp) but work stooped to develop a more advance axial design. See: Gu-VRD Perhaps a design like the Su-9 could have used 2 of these engines (and later re-engine with the axial design) making a resonably sized fighter. See: EnginesUSSR

I perfer the alternative Fw 183 to either design: http://www.luft46.com/fw/ta183-ii.html

Though I think the Messersmitt craft is more practical due to its more advantced development progress. The design also used a wing derived from the Me 262's so this would facilitate development too. (basicly the portion of the wing outboard of the engines mounted at a swept angle iirc, adjustible sweep in the prototype ofcourse) I wonder if there was any though of adaptig the craft to use the 004H engine...

What is the weight of the HeS-011 engine? Ive read that it was heavier than the 004B at around 1900 lbs, is this true?

 

[johnbr]

The HeS-011a weight was 2097lb's but they where working on it to got it to 1997lb's there was also a 011b 3300lb's thrust and 3700lb's one. Ohain said that they had to sacrifice 1000lb's of thrust because of the metal that was used in it.

 

[Civettone]

I disagree that the Germans should have gone for two engined designs. They should have gone for uncomplicated jets like they did at the end of the war. With the HeS 030 your proposed they could have had a decent jet interceptor in the air in numbers by 1943. And there's one aircraft which would have been suited for the task more than others, this one: the Lippisch P.20. It was based on the Messerschmitt Me 163 but would have replaced the short endurance rocket engine with a turbojet engine.

Kris

 

[kool kitty89]

Well they could have done both.. sort-of as the first two fighter designs developed (280 and 262) were designed for class one engines. But I'll agree that He-162 type planes would have been much easier to field fast. But if the He-280 had taken a more conservative approach with the engines (at least intrim) it could have flown with 1,300 lbf HeS-6 engines in modified mountings (to maintain clearance) before the end of 1941.

Though I certainly agree light-weight singgle class-1 engined craft would have had the most effect for Germany. The HeS-30 (HeS 006) would have been even easier to convert the Me-163 to as it could have fitted into the existing fusalage. Pluss the HeS-30 would probably produced even more thrust than the 004B (at least 2000 lbf static) and was smaller and lighter than the BMW 003. Though the compressor was somewhat more complex than the 004's and 003's (not mechanically, but aerodynamically, as the rotors did about half the compession, instead of the stator's doing almost all, so the design could produce the compression in 5-stages, what a normal one could in 10). Thus the engine produced somewhat more thrust than the 004 but with little more than half the weight, length and frontal area. HeS-30 (like the Jumo 004) used simpler flame-cans, opposed to the 003's more-advanced (and problematic) annular one, so it would have had less combustion problems in development than the 003. IIRC the 003 also had to be tuned to syncronise the compressor to avoid vibration.

The HeS-30 also would have needed far less material to build, so high-temp alloys could be used more extensivly per engine than could be done with the other engines. (realitively small turbine and hot-section) Development struggled at first and improved little when Hirth was aquired as Muller (unlike Ohain) was unhappy to accept help from outside the design team. IIRC work was finally going smoothly somtime after Muller left Heinkel and was progressing so rapidly that the engine was nearing production quality and was about to overtake the development of the 004 and 003 when it was cancelled in '42, as it was thought that the 004 and 003 were ready to enter production. But the 004 was only ready in the A (pre-production) configuration and the 003 was having many difficulties and was scarcely producing more than 1100 lbf. These engines subsequently went into long delays, over 1 year befor the 004B was ready for production, and about another year after that for the 003. IIRC fuel efficience of the HeS-30 (006) was similar to that of later 003 models (and probably the uprated HeS-8) and better than the early A models with 1.4 [lb/lbf hr]

Deccyros, Do you have any better figures on SFC of these engines. I particularly havent seen any specific figures on the 004B, or HeS-30. The HeS-3b was supposed to have ~1.6 lb/lbf/hr, so the HeS 6 should be 30-40% less than this.

Can you immagine a He 162 with a fully developed HeS-006 powering it? At around 500 lbs lighter than with the 003 and with 2000+ lbf at SL (~2400 lbf at 500 mph) and with a far smaller target to hit the engine it would have been great. How about a Me-263, ~3000 lbs lighter, with longer range to boot! The He 162 may have even been able to carry MK-103's as these sidn't have the nose-damaging muzzel blast of the MK 108 and had far better performance, though the mountings may have needed strengthening. Recoil would have been high but as an interceptor firing verry short bursts it should have worked. Maby MK-103's with MK-108 cartrages, still higher velocity and accuracy than the 108 due to the longer barrel, but with much lower recoil and a higher ammo load. (You can't put a longer barrel on the 108 due tue pressure issues) The reduced muzzel flash is good too, though less important due to the under-nose mounting. Or maby Blast/Flash supressors could be fitted to the 108s so nose strenthening would be unnecessary.

A jet powered Me-163 (especially with 006 engine) would have been good too and already had the capabillity for Mk-108s. Plus it made a tiny target. Add some R4M's under the wings and you've got a killer! Again I wonder about Mk-103s being used as they had suppicient range to keep the pilot safe, though both the Mk 108 and R4Ms had similar trajectories, so the same sight could be used.


The R4M was simple and devistating. If it had been developed in '41 or '42 (which thecnology wise, it ceartainly could have) the US's day-time bombing missions would have likely ceased. Probably one of the best "wonder weapons" of the war. Simple, cheap, easy to manufacture and use operationally. To be honest though, if the British hadn't had the US to back them up later on they would have eventualy colapsed. Germany probably would have won... (not saying the US won the war, just that were were the biggest desiding factor, especially economically, Britain, a close second in industry, though less so due to their volnerabillity)

Had Germany severed ties with Japan at this stage, we may have stayed in the Pacific only too. Though if japan had struck with our carriers when they were at Pearl, we'd have been in much worse shape there too...

The whole Nazi rising and general situation of post WWI Europe could have been largely prevented if the 14-point plan had been used. (Which, in fact, was what Germany had thought were the terma when they suppendered and were a much more fair arrangemet) As the Central Powers (particularly Germany) really didn't deserve what happend after WWI, and they weren't really at fault. (just the whole stupid situation with secret treaties leading up to it) Besides, Germany could have destroyed Brittain's fleet with submarine warfare if they hadn't restricted them at the USA's request. (caused by Britain illegally transporting weapons supplies on a civilian ship, though the US hadn't known this...) This could have happened far earlier than Britain's advances in tank tech. But I Digress...


The only Jet fighter that could have been ready early enough to make a real difference though would have been the He 280. (Possibly the 262 with HeS 006 engines) If it were to take a more conservative engine approach and use HeS-6 as a stop-gap for better engines, they could be mud-wing mounted in modified wings with about 1/3 of the engine above the wing allowing clearsnce for both the ground and for the exaust under the tail. If well-streamlined nacelles were used and 1300 lbf engines were fitted (assuming thrust hadn't been improved further) the plane should have had a thrust/weight of over .28 if weight was limited to 9250 lbs and a top-speed of ~480+ mph. (so ~2900 lbs
load) And an endurance of ~1 hr (at 2000 lbf net thrust assuming 1.4 lb/lb/hr sfc, though it may have been even less) so, assuming a 400 mph cruise, range should be around 400 miles (up to 600 with more fuel efficient engines, even more with HeS-8s and more further with HeS-30's due to higher performance, increased load capacities and reduced drag) It should have been possible to fit 2 Mk 108s with decent ammo capacity (100+ rounds each) Maybe even Mk-103s with more powerful engines. Or maby a mixed armament of 2x MG 151/20s and a single 108 or 103. Larger numbers of MG 151/20s (perhaps 5) should also have been possible if 2 more were mounted further back and higher up in the nose.
These should have been ready for production by early 1942 and would have been devestating aganst daylight bombers. And, despite somewhat inferior high-speed performance then the Me 262 (as the 280 wasn't meant for much more than 500 mph at altitude and .79 mach limit), it had excelent low to medium speed handeling (below 500 mph, best fit for 350-450 mph maneuvers, though lowere speeds should be good too). Such maneuverabillity would allow easier evasion (or engagement) of escort fighters and would be harder for bomber's gunner's to hit.

Atmittedly after early 1943, the Me-262 should be a better choice (assuming the 280 hasn't been improved) and HeS 006 should be available. Though with the 280 already in service and production, it may have been easier (training wise, and production wise) to fit the 280 with HeS 006 engines.

 

[kool kitty89]

I still think that once Ohain had finished work on his early designs (up to HeS 6) where uncooled radial turbines were a better choice, he should have switched to an air-cooled hollow bladed turbine design. This would also facilitate the use of turbine alloys, while the large, radial turbine would be impractical to do so. Using flame cans instead of an annular cambustor should have solved the defusser and combustion problems too. This way he could use an engine of roughly the same size as the HeS 8 (though slightly wider around the compressor due to piping, but smaller elsewhere; possibly .9m/36 in wide) with straight through air-flow but with much more power, as the cooled (and possibly alloy) turbine would allow higher stress levels. (possibly 15,00-16,000 rpm) This should allow power levels around 1600 lbf possible (maby more). The higher opperating conditions would also allow better fuel efficience. (~1.2-1.3 lb/lbf/hr) Such a design would also be more practical to scale-up too, in the high class I to low class II range (2300-2700 lbf). While further scaling above medium class-2 (2x size or ~3,000 lbf) would be somewhat impractical due to the large diameter. (>50in or 1.3m) As multi-engine axial designd would be more efficient overall. Such a design would have been a better (more practical) way to go than the HeS 8, or HeS 011. The layout of such engines would be reminiscent of the Halford Goblin design, though probably with fewer flame cans and using an axial impeller rather than split/diagonal (or radial intakes like Whittle-based designs) intakes to smooth airflow to the compressor.(and, ofcourse, airbleeds for the turbine)


Of course, if Whittle had been teamed-up with Rolls Royce (or submitted his work to them indepentantly to work with PowerJets durring development) the Gloster meteor (with W.2B Wellands) would have been operational in 1943 (with the G.40 flying in 1940 and the Meteor by late 1941) and the aerdynamic problems (longer nacelles and sleeker canopy) would have been worked out much faster. Later Meteors would either have used uprated W.2 engines (ie up to 2500 lbf in the W.2/700s) or switched to W.2Y (derwents) by 1944. Structural issues would also likely have improved eliminating the heavy controls of the F.III. By the end of the war Meteors could have been pushing 540 mph with ranges ~700 miles with improved nacelles, canopy, and 2,200-2,500lbf enfines. (though the high-speed control from compressibillity/airflow-separation problems of the tail would still be present)

 

[red admiral]

I have some doubts over your thoughts of developed German engines. The HeS 011 was extensively tested postwar by the allies and never came close to making it's design thrust.

Kicking Rover off working on Whittle's jet engine would save about 2 years in getting the engines into service. The Meteor F.4 had the measure of all the proposed German designs that were likely to see service. 590mph max speed and 8000fpm initial climb and comfortable up to M0.81 with the Derwent V