SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Really wouldn't need the range requirements of western and Japanese aircraft.
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To be honest? I didn't really think that far in advance. It's part of why I suggested the non-embargo option since it's simpler.Assuming that France survives at all there are a number of things that can be done to improve the existing planes.
The Butterflies are in full force, Huge numbers and operating in concert here.
All that has been stated is that France survives/doesn't surrender.
What are the British doing?
As in does Dunkirk happen or not?
BEF is still in France, battered but not needed quite the panic build of weapons of July, Aug Sept?
More "stuff" for the French?
Where is the French front line (it can shift a bit over time)?
How many factories lost?
Or evacuated?
BoB becomes the BoNF (battle of North France?)
Germans are stopped 110miles from Paris or 70 miles from Paris? or?
I'm not exactly trying to "give credit", my knowledge of large-scale war planning and tactics is limited and I'm not very privy to how the Italian ground army squares up versus the French ground army.I think you are giving too much credit to the Italians or not enough to the French
I subscribe to the time traveller method when it comes to alternate history; change as little as possible with the real event while still making the theoretical viable. If any of these aren't possible, it might be worthwhile to start theorizing about the non-embargo route.The thing with the British is that if a large part of France is still fighting the Germans there won't be any BoB. The Germans cannot do both, or they could but that would violate every principle the Germans used. They cannot use hundreds of planes to attack England while still using hundreds to keep up pressure on the French army. Germans had lost hundreds of planes in the attack on France and the low countries as it was.
Not saying there wouldn't be some raids but that wouldn't last long. British air defense is going to handle small raids very harshly.
As I mentioned earlier, my opinion is that the British would be a better position to aid the French air industry If Dunkirk doesn't happen. A large part of the BEF is part of the forces defending Aimens, with most of their transport and heavy weapons. This relives some of the pressure to re-equipp the historic BEF and frees up a bit of industrial capacity for other things. Some of which may be aid to France (at least ammunition).
A lot depends on how the land battle goes and if the British think things will stabilize or if it just goes to pot a few weeks later.
France has got to be seen as a going concern (still in business) or Britain and the US are not going to be shipping engines, air frames, weapons, machine tools or technology (plans for better engines) to France.
France simply surviving (gets a better deal in the surrender) is not going to get the better French aircraft you are looking for. The Germans are not going to march away to the east leaving an angry France at the their back with a viable air force, army and industrial capability. There isn't going to be a ceasefire for 2 years while France builds back up to re-enter the fight in 1942-43 with better equipment.
France stops Germany and Italy from Aimens, Reims, Dijon, Lyon, Avignon and Marseille. These areas are the major front lines,
Don't forget that the Maginot Line was continued over the Alps and was not crossed there. (bis)I'm not exactly trying to "give credit", my knowledge of large-scale war planning and tactics is limited and I'm not very privy to how the Italian ground army squares up versus the French ground army.
It is a crap load of butteryflies no matter what route.I subscribe to the time traveller method when it comes to alternate history; change as little as possible with the real event while still making the theoretical viable. If any of these aren't possible, it might be worthwhile to start theorizing about the non-embargo route.
German control would definitely still be there don't get me wrong, France just wouldn't be forbidden from improving their designs and equipment.I find it difficult to swallow premise that allows a French state, like Vichy, to develop and produce weapons in numbers, for the Germans, their allies and their client states with more freedom and cooperation that Romania got.
Maybe it was short sighted of the Germans, But having a "Vichy like state" on the southern border of the German empire cranking out dozens of war planes a month (and other stuff) without direct German control seems very, very trusting.
For the non-embargo route the French and Germans have to get along much better than they did historically in June of 1940. Maybe the French can agree to send 4-5 divisions with French Equipment to the German Army (somewhere other than France?).
France and Italy is a pretty strong pairing when you think about it.Helping supply Italy and some of the eastern European client states would at least be doable from the logistics stand point. Now figure out if the items (aircraft engines, airframes, guns, tanks, artillery etc) would be competing with German/Italian production for raw materials. And/or how much French labor was left in place and how much was transferred to Germany already (historically)
Goes without saying - any additional info about the 14R would've been appreciated. It is one the most misunderstood engine designs of ww2.It's good to rewrite history, I suppose, but you still need to know some facts and figures.
You still need the raw materials.France and Italy is a pretty strong pairing when you think about it.
Italy's major weakness (incompetency of the Big Man in charge notwithstanding) was its poor industrial-base and lack of resources, they had some very strong designs that they either couldn't get into production or couldn't produce in enough numbers due to the aforementioned aspects.
France had a strong industrial base and plentiful resources, but generally lagged behind on the design front.
Italian designs with French industry is a mighty combination that has the potential to shore up the weaknesses of each other. Not to mention that Italy and France don't have the same level of antagonism that France and Germany had around this point, as the Vichy regime was very friendly towards Italy and general public outlook towards the Italians was much more favourable. That's not to say there wasn't any, but compared to the Germans it was much tamer.
France could produce:
- The Cannone da 90/53 and Cannone da 75/46 CA
- The Series 5 Fighters
- The Alfa Romeo 135 (with the 100 octane fuel it was designed for)
- The M1942 Sosso pistol
- The Beretta Model 38 (a personal favourite and my choice for best SMG of the war)
And many more in numbers greater than Italy ever could. The proximity between France and Italy along with the ease of logistics, the friendly relations, and the situations of both nations allow for a capable combination of powers.
It's funny that it was a French engineer who invented the catalytic cracking that became the primary process for producing 100-octane gasoline in the United States. But the French government failed to evaluate the invention's potential properly...France has no ability to to supply 100 octane fuel, either to themselves or to the Italians.
The Soviets were able to achieve 1550 hp on the improved M-89 (GR 14Kdrs). I suspect that the main development problems of the Soviet descendants of the 14K were rather staff related - some design bureau employees were repressed, the head designer was repeatedly changed.Granted the GR 14 as used by the Romanians and Soviets ran into a stone wall as far as development went (they didn't get to the 14R).
I would note that the M-89 gained about 120-150KG over the M-88 depending on exact model/s. Adding 17% Plus weight to the engine and not adding a 2 stage supercharger is a very substantial increase. I would note that the the Late G-R 14Ns were running about 50Kg more than the G-R 14Ks. The Soviets had been increasing the out-put of the N-85, M-86, and M-87 before they got to the M-88 but that jump from the M-88 to the M-89 was bigger than all the other increases put together. Indeed the weight of the M-89 was within 10-25kg of the postwar French G-R 14R.The Soviets were able to achieve 1550 hp on the improved M-89 (GR 14Kdrs). I suspect that the main development problems of the Soviet descendants of the 14K were rather staff related - some design bureau employees were repressed, the head designer was repeatedly changed.
815kg/1550hp(according to Kotelnikov) for the M-89 vs. 814kg/1590hp (according to Wiki) for the 14R - the difference is negligible.I would note that the M-89 gained about 120-150KG over the M-88 depending on exact model/s.
By adding 19% weight, a 40% power gain (compared to the M-88B) was achieved.Adding 17% Plus weight to the engine and not adding a 2 stage supercharger is a very substantial increase.
Really? A reference would be appreciated.I would note that the the Late G-R 14Ns were running about 50Kg more than the G-R 14Ks.
A reference would be appreciated.The Soviets had been increasing the out-put of the N-85, M-86, and M-87 before they got to the M-88 but that jump from the M-88 to the M-89 was bigger than all the other increases put together. Indeed the weight of the M-89 was within 10-25kg of the postwar French G-R 14R.
This is the reason...Not saying the Soviets didn't have trouble with staffing.
...and this is the consequence.They also seem to have been doing a rather substantial modification to the basic engine.
Really? A reference would be appreciated.
Several, but they are not primary sources.A reference would be appreciated.
Really? A reference would be appreciated.
Thanks! Wilkinson gives a different figure of 750 kg for the 14N-48, and wikipedia gives no more than 528 kg in the specs for the 14Ks. That was the reason for my question. I wonder what accounted for such a big difference in the figures?Here we are : (Right column is post-war engines, some with reinforced crankcase and crankshaft)
Wilkinson gives 750 kg for the 14N-48.1938 edition of "Jane's All the Worlds Aircraft" and several editions of Wilkinson for the French engines.
Weights for the Soviet engines are from Kotelnikov.
Wilkinson gives 750 kg for the 14N-48.
Thanks, but my question concerned the data on the French engines only.
Thank you.Here we are : (Right column is post-war engines, some with reinforced crankcase and crankshaft)
The 1938 Janes (reprint) gives 536kg for a 14Kfs but that version is direct drive, no reduction gear. Possible source of confusion?Thanks! Wilkinson gives a different figure of 750 kg for the 14N-48, and wikipedia gives no more than 528 kg in the specs for the 14Ks. That was the reason for my question. I wonder what accounted for such a big difference in the figures?