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The 1938 Janes (reprint) gives 536kg for a 14Kfs but that version is direct drive, no reduction gear. Possible source of confusion?
The 1938 Janes (reprint) also has a typo (?) as it gets the letters out of order (?) or leaves one out.
Trying to figure out the 14K letter code. I think the letter r in the 3rd position (K_r_ means reduction gear and s in last means supercharged?
Letter code maybe a hold over from the 7 and 9 cylinder engines?
In the 1946 edition of Wilkinson the 14N had gone on a diet and the -58 was now a svelte 620kg. Of course it had also lost 220hp at take-off from the 1941 edition as a -50
If anything, France being contracted to mass produce Italian equipment would give them more justification for giving Germany the bare minimum. The Germans sure wouldn't like it (which would greatly please the French), but there's not much that they could do about it because it's still helping them overall. Some of the Italian things they'd be producing would be superior to their German equivalents such as the G.55 and Beretta modello 38, and forcing France away from the deal with Italy to produce for Germany would have serious repercussions on Germany and Italy's relationship.Was France sitting stacks of Iron and Coal just waiting for the Germans order something or were the Germans trying to get the French to ship steel from French iron ore works/steel mills to German factories (or French ones) even to make cooking pots or truck fenders. The French were trying to slow down production to the minimum that would just keep the Germans from stealing the machinery and transporting the workers to Germany. Suddenly producing hundreds of tons of war material under subcontract to France?
For high quality steel and parts you often need exotic elements to make the alloys. Like the manganese, nickel and chromium that Germany could not get for their own engine and armor production. Maybe there was some sitting in a few French warehouses, but the French using that to build high quality stuff for the Italians after not giving it to the Germans? Not going to go well.
I've heard a different story.And by the way, the Alfa 135 was pretty much a disaster. Let's also look at the basic specifications. It was two Bristol Mercury engines stuck together. It might have been hot stuff in 1935. French would have been better off trying to make a G-R 18N in 1939-41. At least the French engines didn't have the valve springs flapping around in the breeze and using 4-5 grease fittings on each cylinder head.
Oh so France wasn't making 100 Octane, they were importing it? I was under the impression that they were producing it and that they just didn't have enough time to make enough of it. Dang, I had no idea.France has no ability to to supply 100 octane fuel, either to themselves or to the Italians. They may have been able to import it up until June of 1940 but without a domestic source of supply and domestic refining French 100 octane in the war years is not happening, UNLESS, the Germans give them a synthetic fuel plant to run? In which case why not give the fuel plant to their allies, the Italians, to begin with?
You are counting on a lot more autonomy than Vichy had historically. The French would have to have done a lot better in the spring/summer of 1940 to force such a conclusion.If anything, France being contracted to mass produce Italian equipment would give them more justification for giving Germany the bare minimum. The Germans sure wouldn't like it (which would greatly please the French), but there's not much that they could do about it because it's still helping them overall. Some of the Italian things they'd be producing would be superior to their German equivalents such as the G.55 and Beretta modello 38, and forcing France away from the deal with Italy to produce for Germany would have serious repercussions on Germany and Italy's relationship.
A Mercury was a short stoke Jupiter, and the Pegasus was a Mercury that had the stroke restored to the original length. Some accounts claim the 136 never made it off of paper.I've heard a different story.
What I've read is that the 135 was a very good engine once they fixed its teething issues, and that the entire Alfa radial line was based around the Bristol Jupiter / Pegasus. I lack information that would allow me to reach a definitive conclusion, but I believe that should the 135 and particularly the 136 be mass produced, they'd be very capable engines.
I may have been in error.Oh so France wasn't making 100 Octane, they were importing it? I was under the impression that they were producing it and that they just didn't have enough time to make enough of it. Dang, I had no idea.
Given my lack of ability with other languages, am I correct in interpreting that document as an order or proposed order/schedule for HS 14R engines?It's good to rewrite history, I suppose, but you still need to know some facts and figures.
The G.55 and Beretta 38 were more throwaway examples of good things France could produce in numbers higher than Italy could, but your points are valid.There were a number of things that could have supplied Italy but the G.55 was not one of them, it showed up too late and it needs to have an engine swap (H-S 12Z?) instead of the DB 605. That or get the French to build DB 605s but with the degree if autonomy you want the French to have that may not happen. The more autonomy your version of Vichy has, the less likely the Germans are going to give any production information for new weapons/engines to them.
Better in hills, woods and urban areas, right? Like the geography found over most of France perhaps?The timing for the Beretta 38 is also off. Good as the Beretta was a submachine gun, submachine guns are not what is wanted for desert fighting. They are much better in hills, woods and in cities/towns.
French could have built FM 24/29s LMGs for the Italians. The Italians never had enough Breda M 30s and since the Breda M 30 was one of the worst LMGs ever built by anybody. It is a double win.
Mortars are not my specialty, but the Brandt 60 mm would be a very good replacement for the mediocre Brixia 35, and mortars larger than the 81/14 mod 35 would certainly be appreciated.French could have built mortars for the Italians. Not sexy but the Standard Brandt 60mm mortar would have been a useful addition to the Italian forces. Pretty much the same as the US 60mm (Americans had licensed it). Brandt was a bit ahead of his time and was working on mortars that were adopted around the world although not so much in France. Brandt 120mm mortars were used in Russian-Japanese border incidents and accelerated Russian interest in the 120mm mortar. For the artillery poor Italians this seems like another double win. Brandt was cataloging 3 different 120mm mortars before WW II shut him down.
The 136 may or may not have been built, most sources seem to say "probably not".A Mercury was a short stoke Jupiter, and the Pegasus was a Mercury that had the stroke restored to the original length. Some accounts claim the 136 never made it off of paper.
The US had several engines (at least 3) that looked good on paper and were a total waste of money, manpower and raw materials when they built them.
One of the most common phrases/sentences you find in books discussing aircraft engines is " It was a very good engine once they had fixed it's teething issues, right before they canceled it".
Perhaps the rose tint is applied in a too thick fashion on them glasses?The 136 may or may not have been built, most sources seem to say "probably not".
However the 135 was still built in small numbers and never got canned, so it obviously wasn't a hopeless engine. From what I could find, the weakest point of the engine was its mediocre supercharger. If Gnome Rhone is producing it - just as an example - they might be able to retrofit or redesign the supercharger they used on the 14R to fit the 135/136. If the engine is capable of ~1,600 hp with room to grow then that immediately puts it on the radar as an option to replace the 14R in certain installations (according to the specs, it was wider than the BMW 801 but shorter and lighter). And if the 136 is capable of 2,000~2,400 hp, that's an extremely compelling option for France.
That's all conjecture though, but it does warrant consideration due to its potential. It was mentioned earlier that post-war they couldn't get the 14R and 18R to work, so maybe the 135 and 136 are on the cards.
Rather than misplaced trust or rose-tinted glasses, it's an statement based on lacking information and conjecture. A 2,000 hp 18-cylinder radial doesn't seem very unreasonable for this period, there's a few examples from other nations that are around that ballpark like the M-71, Homare, Ha-43, Centaurus I, Twin Wasp and Duplex Cyclone.Perhaps the rose tint is applied in a too thick fashion on them glasses?
Italians have had 5+- years to perfect the 135, but still they didn't managed, and the engine never powered an in-service aircraft but filled the warehouse(s). Expecting them to whip up the sibling of that engine that can leisurely make above 2000 HP is an example of a misplaced trust IMO.
The rose tinted glasses come from the generous time period and the fact that some of those engines didn't work well until the war was over.Rather than misplaced trust or rose-tinted glasses, it's an statement based on lacking information and conjecture. A 2,000 hp 18-cylinder radial doesn't seem very unreasonable for this period, there's a few examples from other nations that are around that ballpark like the M-71, Homare, Ha-43, Centaurus I, Twin Wasp and Duplex Cyclone.
But if there's more information to be shared that proves my statement wrong, I'd love to know so I can correct that.
Granted Bristol was a little busy making Hercules engines, which sort of camouflages the Centaurus development cycle. They had around 6 years to sort it out before sticking it in the Tempest II.
Yes. Do not forget that when conflict starts, development of the Centaurus was seriously slowed down by the obligation to make the Hercules - and, to a lesser extent, the Pegasus - more reliable and mass produced.
Rather than misplaced trust or rose-tinted glasses, it's an statement based on lacking information and conjecture. A 2,000 hp 18-cylinder radial doesn't seem very unreasonable for this period, there's a few examples from other nations that are around that ballpark like the M-71, Homare, Ha-43, Centaurus I, Twin Wasp and Duplex Cyclone.
But if there's more information to be shared that proves my statement wrong, I'd love to know so I can correct that.
Ah, the A.80, what an amazing success.Italy................Alfa 135..................
...".."...............Fiat A.80...................
well, you have to give it some slack.Ah, the A.80, what an amazing success.
When you need 18 cylinders to equal other people's 9 cly radials of the late 1930s, let alone the 14 cyl types.
...".."...............Salmson 18 ............a water cooled 2 stroke with direct injection with 9 banks of 2 cylinders each
For 1942-43 you may not have any.So what I'm gleaning from all this is "ditch the Alfa 135". Shame, would've been neat to have it as a strong 18-cylinder radial but I guess it wasn't meant to be. That leaves us with very few options for high-output radials - only really the 14R and 801, with the potential of the 18R and maybe the P.XII.
I should note that I'm totally fine with the timeframe being shifted to beyond 1943. The original purpose of this theoretical was asking how the listed aircraft would square up versus the aircraft from 1942~1943 in a vacuum, but given that this discussion has moved well passed that, stretching the timeframe to 1944 or 1945 is entirely OK to me.For 1942-43 you may not have any.
Piaggio radials are interesting in this context due to their close relation with the Gnome et Rhône radials. A majority of Piaggio radials were either licensed produced versions and/or derivative versions of either the 9K or the 14K - with the P.XII functionally being two 9K's put together.The P.XII was about 78% as heavy as the early (and crappy) Wright R-3350. As used in the XB-19 it had no turbos but did have a two speed supercharger.
I'm not entirely sure how the power-weight ratio works for aircraft, but would it be fine to use lower powered engines if they're significantly lighter? Certain Japanese fighters were made with this in mind, the Ki-44 in particular was an excellent aircraft utilizing the same design principal. If so, then they likely wouldn't need to push past around 1,750 on the 14R while maintaining its light weight.There were reasons the French and Italian engines were so much lighter, they were not built to handle the power. You want more power you have to beef up (redesign) most or all of the engine.
Now for the French and Italians we hit problem #2. If you don't have good gas you are limited as to the boost you can use and that means in order to get high power (more fuel burned per minute) you have two/three choices. More displacement = Larger cylinders (or more cylinders, 21-22 cylinder engines anyone?) or higher rpm. Both mean more weight and with higher rpm you do not have the benefit of more cylinder wall to help with the cooling.