Advanced French Fighters vs 1942/1943 contemporaries (2 Viewers)

I don't think these are race planes turned fighters, for that see the sad story of the Caudron 714
That one is true, mostly, but the D 551 was a development of the D 550 which was built to try to win the world speed record.
While the D 550 was based on the D 520 it was not a modified D 520 but a new plane that was smaller. Only one was built but while they were still sorting out the engine to be used and doing test flying with standard engines the Germans pushed the record beyond what the French thought they could manage. Same thing happened to the Speed Spitfire.
Unfortunately, many photos of the D.550 and D.551 are miss labeled as each other and since there was only one D 550 and one prototype D 551 and 12 (?) preproduction machines (2 complete and 10 fuselages?), I have no idea if either of the flyable planes in pictures were ever modified so identification is difficult. The French did try work on them after the Armistice but were refused permission to fly. Some of our members have better information than I but the record plane used a very small wing and the fighter version was larger but still smaller than the D.520 wing.

Both the French and British totally botched the tactical air war in France. Germans were flying 3-4 times the number of sortied per day than the British and French. British and French were not getting tactical bombers into the target areas until hours after the recon have been done. Germans were often somewhere else by that time. British and French were totally botching up the bomber escort missions. A fighter sweep a half hour before or after the bombing mission is not escorting the bombers. French may have done better but the British were often sending Battles and Blenheims 50-100 miles behind the lines to interdict supplies and not giving the bombers escorts. Then they (high command) would bitch about losses.
Better planes and better training would have given better results but the German planes did get better in the fall of 1940 and spring/summer of 1941.
 
France had the Potez 630. They also adapted to several other rolls. Unfortunately, it was designed to a 1934 specification and in French fashion, it ran late, the initial engine selection was a failure and by the time it went into service in numbers it was horribly obsolete for some of it's intended roles. A pair of 700hp engines in 1934-37 might have been seen as quite up to date. In 1939-40 it was a death trap.
For the Italians the IMAM 57 comes to mind
Most of the 50-75(?) built (out of 200 ordered) were converted to fighter bombers. It might have been a good idea in 1939. By the end of 1940 it was not.
I'm aware of the Potez 63 series, as well as of the Ro.57. The former was designed as a multi-place recon, and the fighter version was indeed built. The later was not produced as a fighter. My point was that neither of the two countries was actually producing bespoke 2-engined fighters as fighters.

It is just pointing out that different fighters had to meet different requirements and that small does not always equal good. Criticizing the US for making big fighters is ignoring the actual needs of the US.
FWIW, just like I'm not criticizing the 'continentals' for their small-winged fighters, I also am not criticizing the Americans for their fighters being of the size they were. Especially the R-2800-powered types, and especially the naval fighters. Indeed, the different fighters were designed to the different requirements.

There was no need to fit drop tanks to the Yak-3s, they had the YAK-9Ds and the YAK-9DDs but the YAK 9DD does point out a problem with small fighters. Putting 185 gal of fuel inside a fighter designed for about 96 gal was possible but the weight increase called for sacrifices in other areas or a loss of performance.
The problem was not as much of putting a lot of fuel in the Yak fighters, but that the -9D and -9DD were powered by the engines no better than the Merlin III - in 1944 for crying out loud. They indeed had them, hopeless as they were.
For the Yak-3 to be of the longer range, the drop tanks' installation would've been the 1st step, just like it was in most of the ww2 fighters, from Zero and Bf 109E onwards.

In 1944 the Soviets could afford to build specialty fighters.
Agreed.
The Soviet long-range fighter in 1944 should not be powered by the engine of Klimov's design (not even in 1943), but by the ASh-82F/FN of the era, or better yet by an AM-39.
 
I'm aware of the Potez 63 series, as well as of the Ro.57. The former was designed as a multi-place recon, and the fighter version was indeed built. The later was not produced as a fighter. My point was that neither of the two countries was actually producing bespoke 2-engined fighters as fighters.
We may be getting a bit side-tracked.
If we are talking about single seat 2-engine fighters you are of course correct, only few countries even built prototypes let alone production aircraft.
But if we go to 2-seat 2 engine fighters they were a more common. Some countries liked the 2 seat fighter for long range in the late 30s because of the crappy radios needing a key (not voice) to get the needed range. Once radios got better the need for a 2nd crewman diminished.
FWIW, just like I'm not criticizing the 'continentals' for their small-winged fighters, I also am not criticizing the Americans for their fighters being of the size they were. Especially the R-2800-powered types, and especially the naval fighters. Indeed, the different fighters were designed to the different requirements.
we seem to be tangled up in a 3 way discussion (or more). I am not saying you criticized either camp. I am agreeing that different countries had different requirements.
The problem was not as much of putting a lot of fuel in the Yak fighters, but that the -9D and -9DD were powered by the engines no better than the Merlin III - in 1944 for crying out loud. They indeed had them, hopeless as they were.
And this is some of the problem with small fighters, there is only so much "stuff"/payload you can put in them. Payload being the difference between empty weight and normal gross weight. If you can meet your mission requirements with the payload you can put in the small fighter (armament, fuel, etc) and get the required performance then all is well and good.
But if the mission requirements change the smaller fighter has more trouble adapting.
Needing to change to a new fighter design instead of being able to adapt an existing one was easier for some countries than others.
Some designs were more adaptable than others. P-39 had a lot trouble adapting due to basic design choices.
 
There are problems with big fighters too. It's clear that the best fighters of the war were about evenly split between the very large and very small, with each basic design approach having both advantages and disadvantages, but maybe it's time for another thread on that.

However with regard to the French fighters specifically, if your own argument against their being of any merit or potential merit is just that they are small, I think we can move past that particular stumbling block simply because Bf 109, Fw 190, MC 202 / 205, Yak 1/7/9, Yak 3, La 5 etc. etc.
 
However with regard to the French fighters specifically, if your own argument against their being of any merit or potential merit is just that they are small, I think we can move past that particular stumbling block simply because Bf 109, Fw 190, MC 202 / 205, Yak 1/7/9, Yak 3, La 5 etc. etc.
Some of them have several problems as result of being small.
While some of the world was building larger aircraft the French went both ways. Bloch 157 gained about 20sq ft of wing area and about 800lbs over the Bloch 155. You want big power you have to pay for it. But the Arsenal V-33/39 went the other way, losing about 20sq ft of wing compared to the D 520 while not being any lighter. Sticking a heavier engine in the plane is going to make somethings worse. Likewise, the D.551 lost wing area although they tried for lighter weight. How successful that was is unknown as there were no real production examples.
Having good air superiority fighters is important. But that is one mission. Not all large fighters are good a variety of missions but a large fighter has a better chance of being good at different missions. Sometimes this is helped by the opposition flying in a different way or using small aircraft of their own or building mostly crappy bombers. Germans reliance on the He 111 as the standard bomber made things easy for their opponents. On the slow side, crappy defensive armament kind of makes things easy for the interceptors. In 1939 and most of 1940 very few fighters carried a significant bombload, like more than a pair of 100lb/55kg bombs. This changed as the years went on but small fighters had trouble with that mission, they did do it or try to but a pair of 100kg bombs doesn't have the same impact as a pair of heavier bombs.
What works for fighter to fighter combat doesn't work as well if you are facing large bombers. It is possible to shoot down large airplanes with a light gun armament but the odds are against you.
Small fighters often have problems with range (fuel capacity).
Problem for the French in 1940-41 is they don't know how the war is going to develop.
Are they going to be able to go on the offensive and need longer range planes?
Are the Germans going to come out with faster or better bombers?
Do-217s in larger numbers? A 4 engine/prop He 177 in larger numbers? or a much better conversion of the Fw 200.
Are they going to have switch to fighter bombers for tactical support missions? Their small light bombers kind of suck but if the French can also build better light and medium bombers at the same time as the small fighters perhaps all will be well.

Bf 109 was used throughout the war, but it was getting a little (or a lot) past it's prime. But it was built in a lot of factories and/or subcontractors and the cost of changing over was high. it was not a good bomber buster (but the US bombers were very big) and it was not a good fighter bomber. Single 250kg bomb in 1944 was not really that great. Since in the west the Americans were kind enough to fly their bombers right past the German fighter bases, long range was not a problem ;)
I have no idea of where the Fw 190 fits in the discussion. Yes, the wing is on small side but a lot of them grossed over 9000lbs clean. A-3 went about 8770lbs (?) and an A-8 was over 9600lbs clean. Are they small or large? They are getting into clean P-51D weights, is the P-51D a small or large fighter?
 
If we are talking about single seat 2-engine fighters you are of course correct, only few countries even built prototypes let alone production aircraft.
But if we go to 2-seat 2 engine fighters they were a more common. Some countries liked the 2 seat fighter for long range in the late 30s because of the crappy radios needing a key (not voice) to get the needed range. Once radios got better the need for a 2nd crewman diminished.
The 2-engined fighters - designed as such - were few and far between before 1941. Talking about in-service types.
There was the Bf 110, a handful of Whirlwinds and Beaufighters, and that's it.

I am agreeing that different countries had different requirements.

+1 on that.

And this is some of the problem with small fighters, there is only so much "stuff"/payload you can put in them. Payload being the difference between empty weight and normal gross weight. If you can meet your mission requirements with the payload you can put in the small fighter (armament, fuel, etc) and get the required performance then all is well and good.
As before - Soviets have had no problem in putting the 'stuff' on their fighters, small as they were. Problem was the engine choice, and a lot of that problem was of their own making. The powerful Mikulin V12s were modified to suit the low-level attack aircraft, while they spent almost all of the 1942 to find the best home for the M/ASh-82 family. Even discounting the possible 'normal altitude' developments of the Mikulins, a long-range fighter powered by the ASh-82 would've been a far better asset than anything powered by anything of the the M/VK-105 engine family.
(all of this is if we discuss only the 1-engined fighters)

Again, Soviets not bothering with drop tanks was the self-inflicted wound once they were mooting about the longer-ranged fighters.

Having good air superiority fighters is important. But that is one mission. Not all large fighters are good a variety of missions but a large fighter has a better chance of being good at different missions.
Having good air superiority fighters was not just important, it was crucial. Lack of these - both in quality and quantity - was one of key reasons why the French and others lost in 1940 against Germany. Not having the edge in air superiority fighters (again, both in quality and quantity) meant the LW was stopped in the BoB.
Or, see the air war in 1944 in ETO - it didn't mattered a single iota that Fw 190 was a more versatile type than the P-51 of the day, what was important was that Fw 190 was worse as an air superiority fighter.

Problem for the French in 1940-41 is they don't know how the war is going to develop.
Are they going to be able to go on the offensive and need longer range planes?
Are the Germans going to come out with faster or better bombers?
Do-217s in larger numbers? A 4 engine/prop He 177 in larger numbers? or a much better conversion of the Fw 200.
Are they going to have switch to fighter bombers for tactical support missions? Their small light bombers kind of suck but if the French can also build better light and medium bombers at the same time as the small fighters perhaps all will be well.
French are not fighting the war alone. There also the British in the fray, and these are also the US-made aircraft in service. There will be a lot of so-so fighters for 1941-42 (Hurricanes, P-40s) to bomb them up. Fernch and Vritish are also buying the BD-7s and future A-20s.
You can bet the Germans are going to field the better gear - hence the drive to make both the more powerful engines and complete aircraft by everyone.
Every 4-engined bomber the Germans make = two 2-engined bombers less are made.

Having a better/best fighter is far more important than having a good mud mover.

I have no idea of where the Fw 190 fits in the discussion. Yes, the wing is on small side but a lot of them grossed over 9000lbs clean. A-3 went about 8770lbs (?) and an A-8 was over 9600lbs clean. Are they small or large? They are getting into clean P-51D weights, is the P-51D a small or large fighter?
P-51 is probably a medium-sized fighter, together with Spitfire and Zero.
 
The 2-engined fighters - designed as such - were few and far between before 1941. Talking about in-service types.
In-service is very true.
However the interest in the type of aircraft started in 1934. France, Germany and Poland were formulating the requirements that lead to the Bf 110, the Potez 630 and the PZL .38 Wilk
There were competitors in France and Germany but the theory gained considerable traction and Fokker in Holland and Bell in the US joined the 2-engine fighter movement. This was also the start of things for Italy and Japan. In March of 1937 the Japanese had 3 companies submit bids (or were requested to) that lead to the Ki 45.
There was no practical experience before Sept 1939 even Poland offered little any practical experience.
Point of this is that aircraft programs were not in a vacuum. A number of Air Forces planned to use 2 engine fighters for long range/long endurance missions. Other planned programs could leave the shorter missions to the single engine fighters (which were cheaper). Seeing as how it took around 4 years to go from start to getting planes in service in any sort of quantity there were a lot of twists and turns from start to finish.
Twin engine single seat fighters were a much smaller group and some of them were rather specialized. The Whirlwind for instance was not a long range fighter. It was, for it's time, a heavily armed interceptor.
The powerful Mikulin V12s
This was an interesting engine. A problem was how to use it. Sticking a 900-1000kg engine into a fighter with about the same wing size as a fighter using a 600kg engine.
Mig-3 also used about 650L fuel supply instead of the 400-500L of the M-105 powered planes. One result was the rather poor armament of the M-3.
Having good air superiority fighters was not just important, it was crucial. Lack of these - both in quality and quantity - was one of key reasons why the French and others lost in 1940 against Germany.
Bf 109E was not that good. They did have better trained pilots, better tactics (Finger 4 beats 3 plane vics just about all the time), a much high sortie rate. A German squadron could equal 3-4 French squadrons in missions per day, at least is a short campaign. But nobody's fighters were close to being perfect at the time.
ot having the edge in air superiority fighters (again, both in quality and quantity) meant the LW was stopped in the BoB.
In general, you need a lot more planes for offence then defense. Germans were also taken surprise by their success in France. Bf 109s were too short ranged for the BoB. And it turns out the 110 didn't work as advertised. It worked in reverse when the Spits didn't have the range needed for the "lean into France" campaign.
There also the British in the fray, and these are also the US-made aircraft in service. There will be a lot of so-so fighters for 1941-42 (Hurricanes, P-40s) to bomb them up. Fernch and Vritish are also buying the BD-7s and future A-20s.
When planning purchases/acquisitions it was often 1-2 years before combat use. A-20s were fairly successful but somewhat short supply. P-40s and Hurricanes still needed top cover.
A nation with several fighter programs could have used different specifications. Building 3 or more different fighters that were all small means the nation actually has restricted options for future developments or needs.
Having a better/best fighter is far more important than having a good mud mover
And yet in 1941-42 the P-40 could do both. It wasn't the best fighter, but it was good enough. 109 had a small wing but it had power. Hurricane had big wing and power.
Soviet fighters could only carry a small load. French fighters in 1940 lacked power. In 1941-42 they have better power but the French were going for even smaller wings, 150 sq ft instead of 170-180sqft aside from the Bloch series.
Having good fighters helps, but if you don't have good mud movers (either fighter bombers or light bombers) and light bombers designed to hold eight-ten 50kg bombs are not really good mud movers in 1942, then the good fighters only go so far, more defense than offensive.
 
Another one which comes to mind is the Japanese Ki-45. Went into combat in Oct 1941
First prototype flew in Jan 1939, but it took considerable redesign and engine changes to get to the production version.
Unfortunately for the Japanese it was somewhat outdated when it went into service. Not getting a decent engine upgrade once in service was also a problem.
 
In-service is very true.
However the interest in the type of aircraft started in 1934. France, Germany and Poland were formulating the requirements that lead to the Bf 110, the Potez 630 and the PZL .38 Wilk
There were competitors in France and Germany but the theory gained considerable traction and Fokker in Holland and Bell in the US joined the 2-engine fighter movement. This was also the start of things for Italy and Japan. In March of 1937 the Japanese had 3 companies submit bids (or were requested to) that lead to the Ki 45.
There was no practical experience before Sept 1939 even Poland offered little any practical experience.
Point of this is that aircraft programs were not in a vacuum. A number of Air Forces planned to use 2 engine fighters for long range/long endurance missions. Other planned programs could leave the shorter missions to the single engine fighters (which were cheaper). Seeing as how it took around 4 years to go from start to getting planes in service in any sort of quantity there were a lot of twists and turns from start to finish.
Twin engine single seat fighters were a much smaller group and some of them were rather specialized. The Whirlwind for instance was not a long range fighter. It was, for it's time, a heavily armed interceptor.

Whirlwind was 'medium ranged' by the standards of it's day- it had a range of ~ 800 miles, almost twice the earlier Bf 109, Yaks, LaGG 3 and La 5, Spitfire, Hurricane, MC 202 etc. Because of this it ended up being used over the channel and North Sea quite a bit later in it's sadly all-too-short career.

In fact, and more to the point, this is also true of the Dewoitine D.520 (strait line range 810-930 miles - with self-sealing fuel tanks and armor mind you), and the MS 406 had a range of 680 miles.

I would say that this represented the French already thinking about extending the range of their small fighters. If, in 1940, they are already reaching 800 mile range, it's reasonable to assume they could improve that especially with external fuel tanks.

This was an interesting engine. A problem was how to use it. Sticking a 900-1000kg engine into a fighter with about the same wing size as a fighter using a 600kg engine.
Mig-3 also used about 650L fuel supply instead of the 400-500L of the M-105 powered planes. One result was the rather poor armament of the M-3.

MiG-3, at least the later versions, had exceptionally heavy armament by Soviet standards, 3 x 12.7mm and 2 x 7.62 mm machine guns, which was one of it's problems (heavy weight). I they took off the gun pods on the wings it became lightly armed in that it lacked a hub cannon, which I guess was due to the Mikulin not having a motorkanone mount. Which was one of the quite nice advantages of the HS 12Y.

Bf 109E was not that good. They did have better trained pilots, better tactics (Finger 4 beats 3 plane vics just about all the time), a much high sortie rate. A German squadron could equal 3-4 French squadrons in missions per day, at least is a short campaign.

If BF 109E is 'not that good' in 1940, I think the problem here is that the standard for 'good' is against a theoretical ideal, rather than the equivalent forces that the French would be facing. You have a point about the lack of French fighter bombers, though the French did of course have fast bomber / strafer types, as well as a possibly improved version of their heavy fighter, and the French Navy had a weird dive bomber which probably wasn't viable but could have been improved upon. They had already figured out the dive-bombing part, they just needed to improve speed (it only had a 690 hp engine so there was room for improvement there). The Germans actually turned the Bf 109 into a fairly effective Jabo, more than most people realize, and the Soviets did the same with the I-16 and I-153 (in part with the help of rockets). And of course the French had American types like the A-20 and SBD was on the way too as well (in theory).

Say what you want about that Br 693, but it's design principle matches strafer roles later adapted by the US, British and Soviets, with varying degrees of success, and it could carry a 1,000 lb bomb load.

But nobody's fighters were close to being perfect at the time.

This the key point. Fighter design was always a system of tradeoffs.

In general, you need a lot more planes for offence then defense. Germans were also taken surprise by their success in France. Bf 109s were too short ranged for the BoB. And it turns out the 110 didn't work as advertised. It worked in reverse when the Spits didn't have the range needed for the "lean into France" campaign.

The Bf 110 worked pretty well in France, it was the BoB where the limitations for daylight combat were revealed. And this had largely to do with speed. For a heavy / twin engined fighter to have a shot in air combat against single engined types, it needed to be at least a little bit faster. Bf 110Cs were considerably faster than MS.406s and Bloch 152s which made up the bulk of the French fighter force in May 1940. They were also (slightly less) faster than the Hawk 75A3 and slightly faster than the Hurricane 1.

But notably slower than a Spitfire, which spelled doom. And the speed of the D.520 would have as well if they hadn't had such a hasty and chaotic introduction.

When planning purchases/acquisitions it was often 1-2 years before combat use. A-20s were fairly successful but somewhat short supply. P-40s and Hurricanes still needed top cover.

A-20s were successful but really needed more fuel which they got (a little bit at a time) in successive waves, and improved armament helped a lot.

That notion of P-40s relying on top cover is largely a myth. P-40s were not flying with top cover really anywhere in the world in 1941 through mid 1942 (because there was nothing available to play that role), and top cover from planes other than more advanced P-40s was still very rare in the Pacific and MTO well into 1943 (in part because of limited range of planes like the Spitfire, and for other reasons with the P-38). It was never used with top cover in China and Burma as far as I know. Not sure about Russia.

Hurricanes were fine in 1940 during the BoB, especially once they switched to finger-four formations etc. Unfortunately that vital change in tactics was not communicated to the forces in North Africa and Burma for another year or more.

A nation with several fighter programs could have used different specifications. Building 3 or more different fighters that were all small means the nation actually has restricted options for future developments or needs.

Debatable. It's always a trade off between various pros and cons.

And yet in 1941-42 the P-40 could do both. It wasn't the best fighter, but it was good enough. 109 had a small wing but it had power. Hurricane had big wing and power.

P-40s didn't have bomb carrying capacity until the Hawk 87 / P-40D / E Kittyhawk which first arrived in combat units very late in 1941.

Hurricanes were already seriously struggling against Axis fighters everywhere they were used by 1942.

Soviet fighters could only carry a small load. French fighters in 1940 lacked power. In 1941-42 they have better power but the French were going for even smaller wings, 150 sq ft instead of 170-180sqft aside from the Bloch series.

The VG 33 was a specialized design for fighter supremacy, but there is no reason they couldn't have built a larger wing for it in subsequent iterations.

Having good fighters helps, but if you don't have good mud movers (either fighter bombers or light bombers) and light bombers designed to hold eight-ten 50kg bombs are not really good mud movers in 1942, then the good fighters only go so far, more defense than offensive.

They had the Bloch 693, the excellent LeO 451, plus various American types (Maryland and Boston). I don't think it's likely that they couldn't put bombs on any of their fighter types.

I would also note that the Japanese air forces proved surprisingly effective in China with planes like the Ki-21 and Ki-48 as bombers, and (specially against shipping) G3M and G4M, despite their light bomb loads and 50kg bombs (and torpedoes of course, in the case of the IJN types), and notably various dive bombers like the Ki-30, Ki-32, and Ki-51 for the Army and D3A for the Navy.
 
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First prototype flew in Jan 1939, but it took considerable redesign and engine changes to get to the production version.
Unfortunately for the Japanese it was somewhat outdated when it went into service. Not getting a decent engine upgrade once in service was also a problem.

I think it had the same speed problem as the Bf 110 did by the time of the BoB. Not fast enough.
 
Apparently (according to the Robot so forgive me if I'm wrong) the MS 410 had provision for two underwing fuel tanks, and the Arsenal VG 33 was designed to carry two 26 gallon / 100 liter tanks which improved it's range from an already pretty good 746 miles to 1,118 miles.
 
Given that the Hawk 75 clearly held it's own against the Bf 109 in France in 1940, I think faster, better armed Hawk 81 types would have as well when and if they arrived.
 
Regarding the specific case of the VG 39 which was discussed a few points ago, I will note that the production version was going to use 16.5 m² wings which would bring it to levels similar to D520 and Bf 109, and more generally the French always increased wing surface when going to the 12Z engine, with the production VG 39 (VG 39 Bis or VG 40) and D520 having around 16 m² and D552 having 15 m² but at a lower weight than the former two.

Regarding the multi-seat fighters, the French had only small needs of them as long range fighters and night fighters compared to the mass of regular single-seat fighters. And in practice, by May 1940 only 500 P-38s were on order to supersede the Potez 631s as they were deemed able to fill similar roles as the 2-seat fighters. Out of domestic options, only the Breguet 700 was seriously considered for production pending a redesign to improve forward visibility (by moving the wing), and only from April 1941 onwards as part of a 2nd step of the new air force program. The advantage at least was that parts were to be largely interchangeable with the Breguet 693/695, such that setting production would be easy compared to a completely bespoke design.

Allegedly per W. Green in 1996, production of the SE 100 was being set up at Citroën for early 1941 but it has yet to be fully backed up by French sources.
 

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