Aircraft Carrier and Aircraft Limits

[SaparotRob]

I've been thinking about msxyz's question about why name ships. I had problems trying to think around NOT naming a ship. Perhaps it's ingrained cultural bias. If they were just numbered, wouldn't CV 1 still have been called the "Covered Wagon"? CV 2 might have still been nicknamed "Torpedo Junction" or the "Galloping Ghost of the Pacific Coast". "The Big Six" just lacks the panache of the "Big E".
I believe ships are named because we like to name them. No corroborating documentation.

 

[pinehilljoe]

I wonder what type of ship a USS Trump would be? There's Probably Never Going To Be A USS 'Donald J. Trump'

I think the new tradition is Presidents that served in US Armed Forces. FDR was an exception, but few would argue with naming CV-42 after FDR's death in office in the last months of the War. Lincoln another exception.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I think the new tradition is Presidents that served in US Armed Forces. FDR was an exception, but few would argue with naming CV-42 after FDR's death in office in the last months of the War. Lincoln another exception.

We'd be hard pressed to follow that tradition here in Canada. Like the namesake fortunate son, our future leaders almost always ensured they were never near the fighting.

List of prime ministers of Canada by military service - Wikipedia

 

[pbehn]

I think the new tradition is Presidents that served in US Armed Forces. FDR was an exception, but few would argue with naming CV-42 after FDR's death in office in the last months of the War. Lincoln another exception.

Reading the list of RN ship names is interesting, it reflects the politics through the ages, I think "Royal Sovereign" was popular because it didn't declare any affiliation to anything List of ships of the line of the Royal Navy - Wikipedia

 

[Admiral Beez]

Reading the list of RN ship names is interesting, it reflects the politics through the ages, I think "Royal Sovereign" was popular because it didn't declare any affiliation to anything List of ships of the line of the Royal Navy - Wikipedia

Which is why there can't be another HMS Agincourt, Cressy, etc. Mustn't offend the continentals.

 

[pbehn]

Which is why there can't be another HMS Agincourt, Cressy, etc. Mustn't offend the continentals.

I was thinking more about several vessels called Boyne and Northumberland, Rolls Royce had an engine named the Crecy

 

[SaparotRob]

I think the new tradition is Presidents that served in US Armed Forces. FDR was an exception, but few would argue with naming CV-42 after FDR's death in office in the last months of the War. Lincoln another exception.

I think President Lincoln might have actually been shot at a couple of times. Mostly by generally being down range of enemy fire and not the specific target.

 

[GreenKnight121]

OK - back to the original question of this thread...

While the class had only been designed for single-engined aircraft, the USN's Essex class CVs actually could have operated twin-engined aircraft as built.

You might think I am referring to the Grumman F7F Tigercat, first test-flown onto and off of CV-38 USS Shangri-La in November 1944 (shortly after her commissioning, the USN used her to test several unusual aircraft for carrier suitability) - but I am not.
On 17 November 1944 the USN flew carrier suitability tests with a P-51D (fitted with an arresting hook and catapult bridle hooks), a F7F (with the arresting hook relocated after the first landing revealed a problem), and one other aircraft - one not exactly a stranger to carrier ops.

That was a USMC PBJ-1H - the Navy/Marine designation for the B-25H Mitchell!
Specifically, the USN had PBJ-1H BuNo 35277 (B-25H-5-NA SN 43-4700) fitted with the arresting hook from a Douglas SBD Dauntless and catapult bridle hooks, and actually made several arrested landings and catapulted launches!

Here is the description from Revenge of the Shang > Vintage Wings of Canada (scroll down about 1/3 of the page)... note that the USN also moved the Mitchell to the deck-edge elevator, moved it down to the hangar, and moved it around the hangar! The only thing lacking was to fit the wings for folding - and as the outer wing panels were fabricated separately and attached complete to the center wing section just outboard of the engine nacelles after the airframe was already sitting on its landing gear, a folding wing should have been relatively easy to design and fit.

After Josephine Doolittle's attendance at the launch, the second fact about Shangri-La that, well, blew my mind, was that it was the first aircraft carrier in the world to actually land a B-25 Mitchell. The carrier named in honour of the Hornet, the first carrier to launch a B-25, was somehow accorded the honour of recovering one. On one single day, 17 November 1944, USS Shangri-La, still on her shakedown cruise, trapped and launched, several times each, a B-25 Mitchell, the world's only navalized P-51 Mustang and the first carrier landings and launches of a Grumman F7F Tigercat. Her war record is stellar, taking part in the Okinawa campaign as well as direct attacks on Tokyo, living up to her promise to avenge the deaths of the airmen lost in the Doolittle Raid and to the 140 sailors who died in the attack on Hornet. After the war, she would be the first American carrier to receive an angled flight deck.

Today, there is only the story of USS Shangri-La left to mark her passing. James Hilton's fiction is still one of the finest books of the 20th century, but now Shangri-La is fictional no more. The Tibetan mountain town of Zhongdian has now officially renamed itself Shangri-La, claiming both the inspiration behind Hilton's fictional locale and the tourist dollars it might bring. Fair enough.

What follows are images and stories of USS Shangri-La... the mystery ship.

One of the most astonishing coincidences for the Shangri-La was the fact that, during her shakedown cruise, she was employed as a test platform to both launch and recover a US Navy B-25 Mitchell (called a PBJ-1H by the Navy). Given that her name came directly as a result of the carrier-based B-25 Doolittle Raid, it was not lost on naval people of the day that she would be the first to recover one on board. This image looks to have been taken shortly after the Mitchell has trapped and then released her arresting wire. These tests took place in the Chesapeake Bay area, close to the Norfolk yards.

During carrier trials for the PBJ-1H Mitchell, sailor Wade Litzinger brought his camera on deck, and from the catwalk along her flight deck, took a photograph of one of the Mitchell's landings aboard Shangri-La. This would be the heaviest aircraft brought to a stop on an American carrier to that point. The pilot was Lieutenant Commander H.S. Bottomly. The tests were for an anticipated need to bring attack bombers like the Mitchell up close to the Japanese homelands in the event of a fight to the end. Photo: Wade Litzinger

Lieutenant Commander Bottomly lands the Mitchell aboard an aircraft carrier for the first time in history—17 November 1944. On that very same day, Shangri-La also landed on and launched a P-51 Mustang and a Grumman F7F Tigercat twin-engine fighter. The Mitchell had been fitted with a tail hook and had been strengthened to take the strain of the trap. It also had unique wheels that could be partially rotated to decrease turning radius on the deck. Bottomly actually aborted his first attempt and had returned to Norfolk for repair. In the end, he would make three traps and three launches. Photo via Shangri-La Cruisebook

With every available viewing position occupied in the Shangri-La's island superstructure, the US Navy PBJ-1H Mitchell gets ready for one of her three launches from USS Shangri-La. The aircraft would be launched well forward of where Doolittle started his run two and a half years before—with the aid of a catapult. Photo via Mission4Today.com

Further information is found here (note that this article places the tests two days earlier, on the 15th: Flightdeck Friday: More Oddities – Steeljaw Scribe

PBJ-1H 43-4700 (BuNo 35277) was modified for aircraft carrier catapult launch and arrest retrievals. The first landings and catapult takeoffs took place aboard the USS Shangri La (CV-38) on November 15, 1944. Although the experiment was successful, no further work on a carrier-based Mitchell took place since American advances in the Pacific made such an aircraft unnecessary.

USS Shangri-La on November 15, 1944

PBJ-1, BuNo 35277 (x USAAF B-25H 43-4700) piloted by Lieut. Comdr. Syd Bottomley traps aboard in picture 1, taxis out of the arrestor gear in picture 2 and is readied for catapult launch in picture 3.

Lieutenant Commander Syd Bottomley, who had earlier served as XO of VB-3 at the Battle of Midway and then succeeded Max Leslie as squadron CO when Leslie fleeted up to CAG-3, was assigned to the Ship Experimental Unit of the Naval Aircraft Factory at Mustin Field, Philadelphia in the fall of 1943. The SEU was responsible for the evaluation and testing of catapult and arresting gear engines and associated handling equipment designed for shipboard and small field use. Bottomley was charged with the operation and maintenance of the test aircraft assigned to projects by the Bureau of Aeronautics and preparation of test aircraft reports, including evaluating carrier suitability portions of the Board of Inspection and Survey trials of new prototype aircraft. Assisting him were Lieutenants Bob Elder and Charlie Lane who had served with him in VB-3 and whom Bottomley dragooned away from the training command.

Among the projects under Bottomley's charge at SEU were the modifications of the P-38, P-39 and P-40 with catapult hooks by NAF for launching from jeep carrier transports. After modifications were completed it was Bottomley and company's place to make catapult shots to determine feasibility, trim tab and flap settings and check flight characteristics. Soon they were also given a modified P-47, P-51, and even a P-61 for catapult feasibility testing. The Bureau of Aeronautics already knew that B-25's could be launched from carriers, but wanted to know if they could be launched with catapults, and so provided SEU with a Marine Corps PBJ-1H (BuNo 35277) which the Corps had acquired from the USAAF. The PBJ-1H was the same as the cannon armed B-25H, and, indeed, this particular airplane had started its life as USAAF 43-4700.

Much of their activities involved testing the tricycle landing geared Grumman F7F Tigercat. No tricycle gear aircraft had ever been in carrier service and there was great concern over possible fuselage and nose damage resulting from the stress of off-center landings with a fixed, non-swiveling tailhook. Charlie Lane was project pilot and lost no time in demonstrating what an uneven cable friction load could do to the skin and frame of a nose-wheeled airplane. It was apparent that the arrestor hook needed to be relocated further forward and have swivel capability if the F7F was to ever carrier qualify. To further prove their points of hook location and swivel, Bottomley sought and received permission for BuAer to include their PBJ-1H in catapult and shipboard handling tests. An SBD tail hook assembly (the SBD was considered to have the most reliable tailhook arrangement) was installed on the PBJ and it was readied for further testing. In land based tests conducted at USCGAS Cape May an unexpected problem appeared: with full-flight engagement of the arresting gear, the single pilot's seat lock would disengage and let the pilot and seat slide forward onto the yoke. This was a big surprise the first time it happened and certainly not a happy event for Bottomley. As a solution, a steel strap was welded to the top of the seat from the bulkhead behind the pilot to keep the seat in place.

On November 15, 1944, three aircraft were successfully tested for arrested landings and catapult launches aboard USS Shangri-La. Charlie Lane successfully demonstrated the results of relocating the swivel arrestor hook on the F7F. Bob Elder put an arrestor hook equipped P-51 through its paces.

And then it was Bottomley's turn in the PBJ. Bottomley told the story:

" . . . it was amazing how easily the PBJ swung into the groove and picked up a wire. The ensuing catapult shot was a breeze, as was the next landing. Then the PBJ was struck below for handling tests on the hangar deck. The main wheels had been designed to turn sideways to ease the plane into tight spots, so BuAer and AirLant staff observers were all over, in and under the PBJ.

"Everything had gone so well it was determined no further shipboard tests were necessary and I taxied into position on the catapult. I had planned to take just the plane captain, Koffel, and Chief Photo Mate Hicks back to Philadelphia direct from the ship. However, Lieutenant Jim Daniels, the SEU catapult officer, talked me into letting him ride over the bottom hatch below the cockpit with Koffel. Chief Hicks sat in the cannoneer seat to my right.

"When the catapult fired, the yoke flew out of my hands as the pilot's seat slid back into the bulkhead, doubling up the steel jury straps that were only designed to keep the seat from moving forward. Some observer on the ship had apparently tried to adjust the pilot seat position and the latch had never re-positioned in its track slot. There we were, airborne off the bow with no one near the controls. But thank God for Jim Daniels! Jim had played tackle for the Georgia Tech Rose Bowl team immortalized by "Wrong Way" Right. With one shove of his mighty arm that seat went back along the tracks into position where I could grab the yoke and reach the wheels-up lever. We then departed for NAS Norfolk, landing an hour later none the worse for our experience."

Hook inspection:

Ready for launch:

Here is a photo of the Kansas City production line in October 1942, with B-25Ds (one of the early variants with the dorsal turret located near the tail... the -H and -J had the turret moved forwards to just behind the cockpit).
Note the lack of the wing outer panels... isn't that just begging for a locking hinge to be fitted?:

 

[SaparotRob]

Incredibly fun post to read! Never would have thought of that.

 

[GrauGeist]

I think the new tradition is Presidents that served in US Armed Forces. FDR was an exception, but few would argue with naming CV-42 after FDR's death in office in the last months of the War. Lincoln another exception.

Not exactly - Lincoln (CVN-72) is a Nimitz class carrier. Nimitz, of course wasn't a president.
There is also Carl Vinson (CVN-70) and John Stennis (CVN-74) who weren't presidents and the new Enterprise (Ford class, CVN-80) that's currently under construction.
The next carrier to be built, will be the Doris Miller (CVN-81), named in honor of the black Sailor aboard West Virginia (BB-48) who manned an anti-aircraft gun during the attack on Pearl, shooting down several IJN aircraft, even as the ship was sinking.

 

[fubar57]

Reading the list of RN ship names is interesting, it reflects the politics through the ages, I think "Royal Sovereign" was popular because it didn't declare any affiliation to anything List of ships of the line of the Royal Navy - Wikipedia

You don't need Wiki, you need this, 415pgs...

 

[SaparotRob]

You don't need Wiki, you need this, 415pgs...

View attachment 617334

View attachment 617335​

I gotta go and look up U.S.S. Farragut now (HMS Abercrombie).

 

[Admiral Beez]

Not exactly - Lincoln (CVN-72) is a Nimitz class carrier. Nimitz, of course wasn't a president......

I think the point was when past Presidents were chosen for postwar carrier names that they usually have some connection to military service, not that all postwar carriers are named after Presidents.

 

[pbehn]

I think the point was when past Presidents were chosen for postwar carrier names that they usually have some connection to military service, not that all postwar carriers are named after Presidents.

Queen Victoria was a carrier, never had any aircraft to put on her though.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Queen Victoria was a carrier, never had any aircraft to put on her though.

What? AFAIK the only ships named Queen Victoria is a current and past passenger ship.

 

[pbehn]

What? AFAIK the only ship named Queen Victoria is a current cruise ship.

Hemophilia, geddit, she was a carrier, oh I am so sharp I sometimes cut myself.

 

[GrauGeist]

I think the point was when past Presidents were chosen for postwar carrier names that they usually have some connection to military service, not that all postwar carriers are named after Presidents.

The naming convention.of U.S. carriers was focused mostly on battles and famous fighting ships.
The USS Franklin D. Roosevelt (CV-42) was named in honor of FDR's passing.
The USS Kennedy (CV-67) was named in honor of JFK's passing.

Starting with the Nimitz class, the USS Nimitz (CVN-68) started a tradition of naming carriers after notable persons (with the exception of CVN-80: USS Enterprise).

 

[GreenKnight121]

The naming convention.of U.S. carriers was focused mostly on battles and famous fighting ships.
The USS Franklin D. Roosevelt (CV-42) was named in honor of FDR's passing.
The USS Kennedy (CV-67) was named in honor of JFK's passing.

Starting with the Nimitz class, the USS Nimitz (CVN-68) started a tradition of naming carriers after notable persons (with the exception of CVN-80: USS Enterprise).

USS Forrestal CV-59, named for US Secretary of Defense James Forrestal.

 

[swampyankee]

The first USN carrier was named after a notable person, astronomer, aviation pioneer, and head of the Smithsonian: Samuel Pierpoint Langley.

As an aside, things are usually named after people to memorialize them. Usually, this requires them to be dead first. Modern US ships named after living people (Stennis, Ford, Reagan, Carter) have been named for primarily political reasons.

 

[SaparotRob]

Totally forgot about CV 1. Don't tell Wes.