"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (4 Viewers)

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Agreed.

There is absolutely ZERO that NATO or the EU can do militarily beyond the established borders at this point in time.

Even the Russian drone that strayed into Europe proper and crashed in Croatia did not require a response.

Russia has to militarily violate NATO airspace/territory in order for an article 5 action and they've come within 10 miles of doing so in their recent cruise missile attacks near the Polish border.

As much as we want to step in and help the Ukraine, we cannot allow passion to cloud rational decisions.

Total war would be the result and in this day and age, it would make WWII look like a third world nation border skirmish...
 

Violations of airspace and maritime areas under NATO control historically aren't that uncommon due to navigation errors. We don't want to kick off WW3 just because some poorly trained Russian pilot loses situational awareness.

It's all too easy to rattle the sabre, as some commentators on this thread and elsewhere have suggested, if you're not the one who's held accountable for a wrong decision that results in NATO service personnel dying unnecessarily or, worse, that escalates an already nasty conflict into a much larger fight.
 
True, it's one thing for an aircraft, ship or even a drone to stray, but if a cruise missile lands in Poland or Romania under the auspices of attacking a town (or rather "military" target), then there will be most likely be a response.
With the current satellite telemetry in action, the source of the cruise missile may/may not be neutralized with a stern warning.
 
wlewisiii said:
Hopefully someone can find more info on this and validate it

Click to expand...
This sounds like wishful thinking on our part and hero propaganda or to be fairer exaggeration on the Ukrainians. 200+ vehicles destroyed? That would take much of the available Ukrainian ATGWs. I hope it's true, but I'll wait for Western verification outside of Twitter. But hell anyways, go Ukraine!
 
buffnut453 said:
A Admiral Beez , what's to "dislike" about my post?
Click to expand...
It's a funny thing how sensitive we are about the perception of others. Someone clicks "winner" and we're all chuffed and proud. Do you send inquires to anyone who "likes" your posts to find out why? Anyway, l clicked dislike not as a disagreement of your post, what you wrote is spot on, what I disliked was the fact that "shooting down missiles that are going to land in Ukraine…would still count as NATO getting directly involved in the fighting." You're correct, but I don't like it, hence the dislike. If I'd disagreed with your post I would have clicked that instead.

The Ukrainians need larger, more powerful SAMs than MANPADS in order to keep their supply lines with Poland open, to intercept the ballistic missiles hitting military and civilian areas across the country and to suppress the Russian air forces. What can the West provide? Ukraine has experience with the anti-ballistic missile capable S-300 system. Here's other SAMs the Ukrainians use. Perhaps Bulgaria or other former Russian vassal states can share them? Are there any NATO long range air defence missile systems we would be willing/able to provide that the Ukrainians would be able to operate? If the Russians can close the corridor to Poland it might be fatal to the Ukrainians - the Russians should have invaded straight down the border with Poland from Belarus on day one.
 
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buffnut453 said:
The only thing that's moving are personnel from the 82nd Airborne. The missiles are already in Germany and have been for some time. Patriot has been employed regularly in Europe-based training exercises for a number of years.
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Yeah, we have had Patriot batteries in Germany for as long as I can remember. Even going back to my teenage days. When I was on active duty we had a battery stationed just down the road from our airfield.
 

I'm not saying anyone here is like this, but I have found many (especially those in the US) don't quite understand the gravity of the situation.

All I ever hear is "We are weak!", "We should be attacking the Russians!", and "We would win easily!"

They don't understand how dangerous it is to get involved militarily.

I don't know about the rest of you all, but I want a world for my kids to grow up in, not a smoldering waste land.
 
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US warns Chinese on support for Russia in Ukraine war

Face to face, President Joe Biden's national security adviser warned a top Chinese official on Monday about China's support for Russia in the Ukrainian invasion, even as the Kremlin denied reports it had requested Chinese military equipment to use in the war. U.S. adviser Jake Sullivan and...
www.yahoo.com
 
wlewisiii said:
Damn it...

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To be fair, these are all stories that are pushed out by Ukranian propaganda to dehumanize the Russian soldiers. Notice how they single out individual stories. Not saying it isn't true, we all know that it happens, but they use this to manipulate the public opinion. If you look at it more neutrally, it just tells you that war is a bitch. (don't confuse this like that I don't have compassion or sympathy for the Ukranian people. I do and I feel very sorry for the poor woman and especially her loved ones).

The stories of shooting down Rusian aircraft can be seen in the same light. Notice how they report every single occurrence of shooting down an aircraft, while there must be hundreds flying out there. It's all to boost moral.
 
wlewisiii said:
Hoo boy. If these radios - 100% analog with no security - are what the Russian Army is using, they're even worse off than we thought.
Click to expand...

AFAIR the russians have a high-end encripted communications system ....... that relies on mobile telephone service. With that gone or disabled for russian numbers this 'high-end' system is worth nothing. these analog things do actually work although the enemy will always have an ear on their comms
 

Forgive the "sensitivity" but you're the only forum member I'm aware of who enabled the "ignore" function against my posts because you labelled me a "contrarian," so it's hard to tell whether or not you're making a personal comment. Seems like you're shooting the messenger rather than engaging with the actual problem which remains the simple truth that NATO cannot deliver ANY military effects beyond NATO's borders until Article 5 is enacted. To do so would mean NATO was ceasing to be defensive and starting to be offensive...which is EXACTLY what Putin has been claiming for decades (i.e. that NATO is a threat to Russia).



It's not clear how much of the pre-war Ukrainian SAM inventory remains operationally viable. There's no point sending more missiles for existing Ukrainian SAM systems if the launchers and radars have already been destroyed or are inoperable. There's also the challenge of ensuring we're sending missiles that are 100% interoperable with the Ukrainian systems. Just because it says "S-300" on the box does not mean the exact missile variant will work with the launcher, radar etc...and I suspect the Russian manufacturers won't want to help answer those questions.

Any new long-range SAM systems that are not currently operated by Ukraine would simply become targets for Russian air and ground assets. SAMs are incredibly complex systems that require extensive training and integration with other systems (e.g. early warning). Until that level of operational proficiency and integration is achieved, the missile systems are just expensive boxes of electronics that can't threaten anything.

I guess that's me being a contrarian again.
 
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