buffnut453
Captain
Plus unexploded cluster munitions make it harder for the invaders to maintain those positions as they will present a lingering threat to Russian movement and action.
"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (40 Viewers)
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Plus unexploded cluster munitions make it harder for the invaders to maintain those positions as they will present a lingering threat to Russian movement and action.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Guys, about the cluster munitions - Ukraine doesn't intend to deploy the cluster bombs.
They untend to dismantle the cluster bombs in order to use the Mk. 118 bomblets for their drones.
They untend to dismantle the cluster bombs in order to use the Mk. 118 bomblets for their drones.
Admiral Beez
Major
You sure? For starters I believe they're artillery shells, not bombs. I've read that one of the reasons the US is sending the 155mm cluster munitions is that the US is having trouble meeting its self-imposed commitment to provide X number of artillery shells. Ukraine is firing thousands of 155mm shells per week, far more than NATO can produce. Giving over the 155mm cluster munitions helps fill that pipeline of artillery. If Ukraine dismantles the shells, they'll have nothing for the artillery.
"Aside from humanitarian concerns, an additional hurdle to sending them to Ukraine is that President Biden will likely need legislative action to make it happen. President Obama signed into law a near-total ban on U.S. exports of cluster munitions on March 11, 2009, as part of the omnibus budget bill.
The law requires that only cluster munitions with a demonstrated dud rate of 1% or less can be exported. DCISM, for example, is considered to have a very low dud rate, but it's estimated in the 3-4% range. Cold War era US cluster munitions had a dud rate of around 30%, and Russian cluster munitions currently in use are believed to have a dud rate of between 20%~40%.
Unless there is some kind of loophole of which I am unaware, President Biden cannot legally export almost any American cluster munitions."
Cluster munition controversy
The law requires that only cluster munitions with a demonstrated dud rate of 1% or less can be exported. DCISM, for example, is considered to have a very low dud rate, but it's estimated in the 3-4% range. Cold War era US cluster munitions had a dud rate of around 30%, and Russian cluster munitions currently in use are believed to have a dud rate of between 20%~40%.
Unless there is some kind of loophole of which I am unaware, President Biden cannot legally export almost any American cluster munitions."
Cluster munition controversy
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Mk. 20 cluster bomb is air dropped, not artillery.
This is what Ukraine requested. I see several news sources that have gone out into left field with artillery and other spins, but Ukraine specifically requested the Mk. 20 Rockeye, which contains the Mk. 118 HEAT bomblets.
In addition, Ukraine has been asking for the Rockeye since March of this year.
This is what Ukraine requested. I see several news sources that have gone out into left field with artillery and other spins, but Ukraine specifically requested the Mk. 20 Rockeye, which contains the Mk. 118 HEAT bomblets.
In addition, Ukraine has been asking for the Rockeye since March of this year.
Admiral Beez
Major
Isn't the Congress pressing Biden to send them? In that case, any proposed amendments to the legislation should be fine.
Apparently not for the purposes of being USED as cluster munitions.
Interestingly, the following backs what GrauGeist suggested (but with a big additional ALSO) - read on:
"Ukraine has broadened a request for controversial cluster bombs from the United States to include a weapon that it wants to cannibalize to drop the anti-armor bomblets it contains on Russian forces from drones, according to two U.S. lawmakers.
Kyiv has urged members of Congress to press the White House to approve sending the weapons but it is by no means certain that the Biden administration will sign off on that. Cluster munitions, banned by more than 120 countries, normally release large numbers of smaller bomblets that can kill indiscriminately over a wide area, threatening civilians.
Ukraine is seeking the MK-20, an air-delivered cluster bomb, to release its individual explosives from drones, said U.S. Representatives Jason Crow and Adam Smith, who both serve on the House of Representatives Armed Services Committee. That is in addition to 155 mm artillery cluster shells that Ukraine already has requested, they said.
They said Ukrainian officials urged U.S. lawmakers at last month's Munich Security Conference to press for White House approval.
Ukraine hopes cluster munitions will give it an edge in the grinding fight against Russian forces in eastern Ukraine.
The Ukrainian government has said publicly that it wants U.S. cluster munitions. The petition for MK-20s - also known as CBU-100s - has not been reported previously.
The Ukrainian Embassy referred Reuters to the defense ministry in Kyiv, which did not immediately respond to a request for comment."
The above is from a journalistically credible source too - Exclusive: Ukraine seeks US cluster bombs to adapt for drone use - lawmakers
Personally, I smell obfuscation. Any significant delivery of MK20s equates to a hell of a lot of drone-drops. And that order AND the request for 155mm cluster munition shells being blended together looks a little like the creation of a potentially deliberate fig-leaf to me.
As an old South African mate used to say 'Time to $hi£ or get off the pot, bru'. Is the US going to supply 'full on' cluster munitions. Or bomblets. And if its the latter, why not extract the bomblets first from the MK20? Surely they have to be relatively easy to remove for checks, maintenance and servicing anyway?
A cluster bomb is a relatively simple 'dumb' munition. Sending it as the complete item, if the actual intention is to use the bomblets, looks disingenuous to me. Its also something of a distraction to the question of the 155mm shells, which presumably use a different submunition anyway.
Theres the waft of kippers surrounding this whole story...
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Yes. It is!
Thumpalumpacus
Colonel
No argument from me; their military utility is unquestionable, though it still won't be walking up to anything. I think we all understand why the Ukrainians want these weapons, I was just pointing out possible political downsides.
Thumpalumpacus
Colonel
As I noted above, the transfer has already been approved. I'm not clear whether it's intact canisters, or disassembled, but according to the US gov't today, they're going.
You're right that someone might be trying to sneak Sally through the alley, if the rounds are shipped intact. It could also be both dismantling for drone use as well as giving the Russians a nice drop-bear from a time-on-target.
At any rate, I still think it's a Ukrainian decision whether or not to mine their own country. I support their self-defense, and as an American taxpayer willing to fund it even if I cringe at the outlook thirty or forty years from now. They're fighting for life, so I can't really argue with it.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Shipping the Rockeye intact makes better sense as the Rockeyes have their own proprietary shipping cases and would then act as shipping containers for the bomblets.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The 155mm cluster artillery shell contains M42/46 dual purpose bomblets.
These would be perfect for the anti-personnel drone missions that Ukraine carries out already.
As we've seen over the past year, Ukraine has come up with some brilliant tactics, one of which is dropping munitions via drone but they don't have an infinite supply of munitions for their drones.
The Mk. 118 will be ideal for their "top down" anti-armor tactic and the M42/46 will allow them to contunue to scour Russian trenches.
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syscom3
Pacific Historian
Separated at birth.
manta22
Banned
Wascally Wabbit.
Admiral Beez
Major
Give them anything Ukraine wants short of WMDs and the very latest Gen aircraft/tech so long as US/NATO isn't left short. Mark 77 Napalm bombs, ATACAMS, Abrams, Harpoons, TLAMs, cluster bombs, Vipers, anything….
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Two weeks after Russia’s mutiny, the situation between Putin and Prigozhin just gets weirder
Alexander Lukashenko has projected himself as a key negotiator in bringing the Wagner mutiny to an end, but the Belarusian leader now faces a real risk that his peacemaker deal will unravel and leave him with little power and a backyard full of mutinous mercenaries.
www.abc.net.au
manta22
Banned
As the old saying goes, "When you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas."
Two weeks after Russia’s mutiny, the situation between Putin and Prigozhin just gets weirder
Alexander Lukashenko has projected himself as a key negotiator in bringing the Wagner mutiny to an end, but the Belarusian leader now faces a real risk that his peacemaker deal will unravel and leave him with little power and a backyard full of mutinous mercenaries.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
If they're Golden Retriever puppies, I'll risk it.
Puppies are ok cause they aren't really dogs yet.
