"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (3 Viewers)

[XBe02Drvr]

Smells like a false flag to me. Excuse to drag heels in negotiations.

 

[Admiral Beez]

But in seriousness, the Indians have to be worried about their gear now.

To be fair, China's kit is mostly knockoffs of Russian kit, so China vs. India is pretty much an equal fight of sh#t weaponry. Though China's newer tanks might offer an edge.

Still, I can't imagine being a Russian arms merchant once this is over.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Australia to send Bushmasters to Ukraine

View attachment 663328

What happens if Russia shoots down an Australian C-17? There's no defence alliance.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Still, I can't imagine being a Russian arms merchant once this is over

I can't imagine being the Russian helicopter crew assigned the suicide mission of blowing up their own tankfarm.
Plausible deniability requires no surviving participants.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

What happens if Russia shoots down an Australian C-17? There's no defence alliance.

Land in Poland, park Bushmasters on Ukraine border with keys in ignition. Done deal. PresQue'Isle, Maine eighty years later.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

To be fair, China's kit is mostly knockoffs of Russian kit, so China vs. India is pretty much an equal fight of sh#t weaponry.

China's arms industry appears more technically competent than Russia's, and likely less corrupt. Their older "knockoff" weaponry likely has more effective upgrades on it.
And they likely have more up to date doctrine and training, and have been given a preview of the pitfalls to avoid going forward. Spanish Civil War redux.

 

[Glider]

Zelenskyy warns residents to beware of land mines left by Russians creating a 'complete disaster' outside Kyiv

As Russia withdraws some of its ground forces from areas around Kyiv, residents have been told to beware of land mines left around homes, equipment and dead bodies.

www.abc.net.au

To a certain degree the Russians were on a lose lose situation with this. As you would normally expect a target on this importance to have some form of defence even if its just the ability to ensure that radar cover is in place so that aircover can be called at any time.

If they said nothing then thy have to live with the realisation that there own airspace is very insecure and possibly take more damage.

If they say something, then they are admitting to the whole world just how woeful the Russian air defences are.

They seem to have taken the second option.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

To be fair, China's kit is mostly knockoffs of Russian kit, so China vs. India is pretty much an equal fight of sh#t weaponry. Though China's newer tanks might offer an edge.

Still, I can't imagine being a Russian arms merchant once this is over.

1) While we haven't seen what Chinese QA/QC standards are for their military hardware, it's hard to imagine they'd be worse than what we're seeing with the Russians. The graft in the latter's manufacturing and maintenance sectors has, according to a couple of articles I've read, played a part in the inability of the gear to keep up on the battlefield, though I can estimate how accurate those claims are. But I do know that the CCP is very intolerant of graft and corruption when it affects state enterprises.

2) If you read the article I linked, you'll see that part of the point of sending American diplomats to India is to hopefully get them to start ordering American equipment. If successful that'd be a win-win, as the Indians will be getting better kit and American industry would fetch further orders.

3) I bet Russian arms-dealers won't have a problem keeping sales to African nations, where the militaries are more for keeping the civilians in line rather than facing first-rate troops from other nations.

 

[SaparotRob]

FlyboyJ coined the phrase back in 2018

Aviation myths that will not die

That's funny. I have a soft cover book at home about the P-38 titled "the fork tailed devil." Where did that name come from, and what did the Germans call it?

ww2aircraft.net

Dave, you have no idea how embarrassed I am. I have never taken credit for anyone else's work. As I never actually work that's easy. In all seriousness, I offer a public apology.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

China's arms industry appears more technically competent than Russia's, and likely less corrupt. Their older "knockoff" weaponry likely has more effective upgrades on it.
And they likely have more up to date doctrine and training, and have been given a preview of the pitfalls to avoid going forward. Spanish Civil War redux.

Not to mention the fact that the Chinese electronics industry has made tremendous strides in the last two decades.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What does Ukraine need to raise the siege of Mariupol and push the Russians back into Crimea and as far as possible into/beyond Dombast? See latest map below. This must happen before any ceasefire - that's where Ukraine's gas reserves are, for one. The Ukranians have done miracles on defence, but they need a larger force, offensive weaponry, tanks, mobile artillery, logistics and expert generalship to seize and hold territory. Is there an Ukrainian Montgomery, Patton or Guderian? Staying on defence is a losing game.

This website suggests the Ukrainian have lost seventy-nine tanks. It doesn't say how many they've captured intact.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

To a certain degree the Russians were on a lose lose situation with this. As you would normally expect a target on this importance to have some form of defence even if its just the ability to ensure that radar cover is in place so that aircover can be called at any time.

I was discussing this earlier elsewhere. In the video posted upthread, and its accompanying article, the two heloes are said to have flown a low-level profile of 150' AGL or so, which would greatly affect radar tracking. Because the mission was flown at night, the choppers would be hears, but ID/IFF problems might have delayed a Russian AD response.

I don't know that it had no AD, but if it did, that's one possible explanation. Another is that this is indeed a false-flag and so no defensive fire was offered.

I'm still surprised at the lack of point-defense (as opposed to SAMs) we see in the video.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

I was discussing this earlier elsewhere. In the video posted upthread, and its accompanying article, the two heloes are said to have flown a low-level profile of 150' AGL or so, which would greatly affect radar tracking. Because the mission was flown at night, the choppers would be hears, but ID/IFF problems might have delayed a Russian AD response.

I don't know that it had no AD, but if it did, that's one possible explanation. Another is that this is indeed a false-flag and so no defensive fire was offered.

I'm still surprised at the lack of point-defense (as opposed to SAMs) we see in the video.

Definitely UFOs disguised as choppers, as Dimlee said. I don't ser any helicopter.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

If they said nothing then thy have to live with the realisation that there own airspace is very insecure and possibly take more damage.

If they say something, then they are admitting to the whole world just how woeful the Russian air defences are.

They seem to have taken the second option.

Night vision warfare requires a level of training and competence difficult to achieve and maintain with unmotivated short term conscripts and low level reservists. Night time Nap Of the Earth helicopter ops is pretty difficult and dangerous with such personnel, hence it appears the Ukrainians own the night skies. An area air defense radar not sited on or adjacent to the target facility would be hard put to detect an NOE attack with enough lead time to prevent launch of their stand-off weapons. 5 AM is the low point in human energy and efficiency, even for night shift folks, especially a "scope dope" nearing the end of a long shift. That's when we were buttoning up our planes and towing them to the gate, and every job had to be separately inspected by two supervisors, the offgoing and the oncoming.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Definitely UFOs disguised as choppers, as Dimlee said. I don't ser any helicopter.

If you check out the video in this Daily Mail article, helicopters can clearly be seen at :06.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

If you check out the video in this Daily Mail article, helicopters can clearly be seen at :06.

Nop helos my friend. Clearly UFOs disguised as choppers

 

[Glider]

Night vision warfare requires a level of training and competence difficult to achieve and maintain with unmotivated short term conscripts and low level reservists. Night time Nap Of the Earth helicopter ops is pretty difficult and dangerous with such personnel, hence it appears the Ukrainians own the night skies. An area air defense radar not sited on or adjacent to the target facility would be hard put to detect an NOE attack with enough lead time to prevent launch of their stand-off weapons. 5 AM is the low point in human energy and efficiency, even for night shift folks, especially a "scope dope" nearing the end of a long shift. That's when we were buttoning up our planes and towing them to the gate, and every job had to be separately inspected by two supervisors, the offgoing and the oncoming.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but at the end of the day Russia is admitting that its defences are ineffective. They are supposed to have AWAC's and complete control of the air, and now have admitted that the Ukraine can strike from the air, more or less at will, anywhere in the Ukraine and now over Russia itself.

For a country that purports to be a major power and one that has invested a lot of money and prestige in its AA forces, both ground and air based this is a major humiliation

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Oh fart! I made that up and used it before I ever knew of the Forum. Curses! Foiled again.

No worries - great minds think alike - I think we had a physic connection!

 

[SaparotRob]

There goes my one hope of being a footnote in aviation history.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

There goes my one hope of being a footnote in aviation history.

Nope - you're still a living legend as far as I'm concerned!!!!