"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (1 Viewer)

[XBe02Drvr]

first salvo hitting moving target - almost impossible for me....

Probably laser guided munitions with a drone illuminating the target. Notice the roadside tree rows? The kill projectile would need a very steep terminal trajectory to avoid pre-triggering.

EDIT (24 min later) Just realized Admiral B made the same comment upthread, and I missed it. My apologies.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Personally I would lay good money on the Ukraine Army being more than happy with Leopards.

If there was ever a time Canada should deploy its Leopards to eastern Europe it's now. Since we're not, I have to wonder if savings can be made by eliminating the unit and selling/gifting the CAF's approximately one hundred Leopards to Ukraine.

Canada needs to sort out its defence priorities. No one is invading Canada, so the army can be reduced. The navy needs to be ready to support REFORGER ops, monitor the Northwest Passage/Artic waters and push to join AUKUS (CANZUKUS?). The RCAF clearly needs its F-35s asap, plus replacements for the Aurora MPA, and should be looking into long range patrol drones.

Back to the tanks, let's gift them to Ukraine.

 

[wlewisiii]

I don't want to be the person who pours cold water onto this but I read this afternoon that the German government have refused permission for Marder APC's currently stored with the manufacturer to be refurbished (at the company's expense) and sent to the Ukraine.

If they will not allow the transfer of an APC I cannot see them allowing the transfer of Leopard tanks.

One of the reasons being given was that they wanted to ensure that the Ukraine were given equipment they really wanted. Personally I would lay good money on the Ukraine Army being more than happy with Leopards.

Leo 1's would require complete retraining for use by the Ukrainian military. They have a four-man crew with a loader. You may not think it but that is a real set of skills that no tanker in Ukraine would have due to the autoloaders on every Russian tank since the T-64. The operator maintenance, while similar because all tanks have the same needs, will be completely different in detail and they would need to learn the new procedures and manuals. That would be even more miserable at the unit level of maintenance. Then there is the difference in the fire control systems, and I am unfamiliar if the German tanks ever received the laser rangefinder upgrades that the Belgian and Canadian Leo's did. Lastly, they are armed with the L7 105mm rifle. While there is still huge stocks of that ammo available with it's use on things like the godforsaken Stryker Mobile Gun System, none of it is in Ukrainian stocks and would have to be supplied along with the vehicles.

In short, the Leopard One would be a very poor fit for Ukraine. If there are any T-72's remaining from DDR days, they would be a much better transfer for Ukraine.

 

[J_P_C]

Probably laser guided munitions with a drone illuminating the target. Notice the roadside tree rows? The kill projectile would need a very steep terminal trajectory to avoid pre-triggering.

probably you are correct:

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Стратегічний виробник озброєння та військової техніки в Україні.

ukroboronprom.com.ua

 

[Glider]

Leo 1's would require complete retraining for use by the Ukrainian military. They have a four-man crew with a loader. You may not think it but that is a real set of skills that no tanker in Ukraine would have due to the autoloaders on every Russian tank since the T-64. The operator maintenance, while similar because all tanks have the same needs, will be completely different in detail and they would need to learn the new procedures and manuals. That would be even more miserable at the unit level of maintenance. Then there is the difference in the fire control systems, and I am unfamiliar if the German tanks ever received the laser rangefinder upgrades that the Belgian and Canadian Leo's did. Lastly, they are armed with the L7 105mm rifle. While there is still huge stocks of that ammo available with it's use on things like the godforsaken Stryker Mobile Gun System, none of it is in Ukrainian stocks and would have to be supplied along with the vehicles.

In short, the Leopard One would be a very poor fit for Ukraine. If there are any T-72's remaining from DDR days, they would be a much better transfer for Ukraine.

I actually do agree with almost everything you say. Personally the training of the tank crews whilst difficult is probably easier to do than the training of the engineers who will maintain them as special tools would be needed, spares from vision blocks, to tracks, to the complex engines and all the new electronics learnt and understood.

However the West only have a finite number of ex Russian T72ish tanks available. If there are to be supplemented then the Leopard is a good tank as they were used by many countries and there will be considerable stocks around. There will be differences between the German, Canadian, Dutch, Italian, Belgian and no doubt others, but the core tank will also have similarities
Challenger 1 tanks for example would be useless as there were so few of them made in the first place.

 

[wlewisiii]

I actually do agree with almost everything you say. Personally the training of the tank crews whilst difficult is probably easier to do than the training of the engineers who will maintain them as special tools would be needed, spares from vision blocks, to tracks, to the complex engines and all the new electronics learnt and understood.

However the West only have a finite number of ex Russian T72ish tanks available. If there are to be supplemented then the Leopard is a good tank as they were used by many countries and there will be considerable stocks around. There will be differences between the German, Canadian, Dutch, Italian, Belgian and no doubt others, but the core tank will also have similarities
Challenger 1 tanks for example would be useless as there were so few of them made in the first place.

After the war, yes. Getting them integrated into NATO standard weapons and vehicles should be a high priority. The Leopard Ones would be an excellent purchase or "Loan" via some form of lend lease.

During the conflict however, they don't have the time or manpower to spare on the retraining and resupply issues if they can avoid it.

 

[J_P_C]

I actually do agree with almost everything you say. Personally the training of the tank crews whilst difficult is probably easier to do than the training of the engineers who will maintain them as special tools would be needed, spares from vision blocks, to tracks, to the complex engines and all the new electronics learnt and understood.

However the West only have a finite number of ex Russian T72ish tanks available. If there are to be supplemented then the Leopard is a good tank as they were used by many countries and there will be considerable stocks around. There will be differences between the German, Canadian, Dutch, Italian, Belgian and no doubt others, but the core tank will also have similarities
Challenger 1 tanks for example would be useless as there were so few of them made in the first place.

Only Poland have at least 700 T72 available....400 active duty and 300 in reactivation process started a year ago.

 

[wlewisiii]

Oh, boy...

 

[tomo pauk]

Send all and any T-72s that can be found to Ukraine.
Send the M1s and Leo2s to the countries sending the T-72s.

Not my idea, similar job was undertaken with S-300 from Slovakia to Ukraine, with Slovakia getting the Patriot.

Leo1 is a bad joke.

 

[GrauGeist]

That Russian tank column was attacked by the Ukrainian 54th Mechanized Brigade.
What they were using to hit the Russian armor with, I'm not sure, but the 54th has tanks and self-propelled artillery as well as motorized infantry.

 

[J_P_C]

after Mig29 case Poland is not revealing information about weapon transfer to Ukraine any more - but you have heard about any specific request from Ukraine to Poland in this matter?? - by my observations most of contents of our arsenals are already in Ukraine or on in it's way to be there...

 

[fubar57]

Oh, boy...

Ahhhh....a return to the good ole days

 

[Admiral Beez]

after Mig29 case Poland is not revealing information about weapon transfer to Ukraine any more...

Indeed, that was pretty dumb of Poland on the MiGs. Someone in media relations in the Polish government or military thought it would be great virtue signaling to tell the world they're helping with the MiGs and the whole thing blew up. When the smart move was to keep it on the down low, paint them all in Ukrainian colours, bus their pilots to Poland and have them fly them home.

 

[gumbyk]

Indeed, that was pretty dumb of Poland on the MiGs. Someone in media relations in the Polish government or military thought it would be great virtue signaling to tell the world they're helping with the MiGs and the whole thing blew up. When the smart move was to keep it on the down low, paint them all in Ukrainian colours, bus their pilots to Poland and have them fly them home.

The problem with that is that Poland need to back-fill with US aircraft. It was the US who scuppered the deal by not providing replacement aircraft. There were multiple ways to get the aircraft to Ukraine without involving anyone else, but htat would have left Poland without cover.
Don't forget that every country that was sending equipment to Ukraine was doing it transparently and publicly, likely to signal to putin and the Russian public just how much everyone was against him. I think the initial hope was that this would make him back down. Now that he's obviously doubled-down, it can all happen quietly.

 

[J_P_C]

Indeed, that was pretty dumb of Poland on the MiGs. Someone in media relations in the Polish government or military thought it would be great virtue signaling to tell the world they're helping with the MiGs and the whole thing blew up. When the smart move was to keep it on the down low, paint them all in Ukrainian colours, bus their pilots to Poland and have them fly them home.

actually im agree with gumbyk in this matter - parts of the deal who screwed this most were USDoD and USDoS, Polish politicians just added some dumb statements which were "cherry on the top of the cake"

 

[nuuumannn]

Spanky on my first Fulcrum BFM.

Magic! I was about to cheekily ask for photos!

 

[MiTasol]

Ukraine might currently be called The mouse that roared back so I intend to watch the film The mouse that roared for some light relief. Peter Sellers always makes me laugh and the plot has some common points with what is happening.

EDIT Watch The Mouse That Roared Online | Watch Full The Mouse That Roared (1959) Online For Free

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

first salvo hitting moving target - almost impossible for me.... Even considering that most of the Ukrainian artillery is fully computerized with Topaz system...

One shot, one kill is the ideal. I imagine these gunners have had a lot of practice over the last eight years.

My son tells me the Russians are using the Chechens as back-up units to keep the Russians from breaking and running, but I'm not sure how accurate his info is.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Ukraine might currently be called The mouse that roared back so I intend to watch the film The mouse that roared for some light relief. Peter Sellers always makes me laugh and the plot has some common points with what is happening.

A point that's probably not lost on Volodymir. Life imitating art.
Loved the bullhorn with an arrow through it!

 

[MiTasol]

and the car tyres/tires with arrows that remain inflated.

The US refusal early on to give Poland new aircraft in exchange for MiGs to Ukraine has bugged me from day one.

Now I suspect that the US may have been worried that Russia would steamroll Ukraine, as was predicted, and, if the MiG deal went through, go straight on into Poland while Poland had no fighter aircraft for defense. Conversion training from the MiG to an American type would take months at best but the trainees could still return home and fly MiG's if the Russians attacked.

Hopefully there are now lots of Poles in the US quietly getting training and some of the MiG's have been "hijacked" to Ukraine. Maybe it is time for some Polish, and other, tank crews to "steal" some tanks and join the Ukrainian army in the east.