Admiral Beez
Major
Steiner will turn it around…..
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"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (17 Viewers)
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I have a query on the non proliferation / sovereignty guarantee signed by Ukraine and Russia. Were there any other signatories to this
as to sovereignty as Russia has clearly broken the terms (reasons why were clearly pointed out in this thread but I don't recall which post/s).
If there are other signatories does that mean they have an internationally legal right to intervene or even an obligation to do so ?
as to sovereignty as Russia has clearly broken the terms (reasons why were clearly pointed out in this thread but I don't recall which post/s).
If there are other signatories does that mean they have an internationally legal right to intervene or even an obligation to do so ?
buffnut453
Captain
The Budapest Accords were signed by UK, US, Russia, France, China, Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan. The Accords simply provide for Ukraine to give up its nuclear weapons and, in return, received signed assurances from the other nations that they would respect Ukrainian territorial integrity. There is no clause in the text calling on signatories to protect Ukraine if one of the other signatories breaks the Accord.
That's what I was wondering. Thank you.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
He may well be talking to a domestic audience that is only allowed to see what he permits the media to air anyway. He may not be caring about foreign opinion at all, in my view.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
His statements about his advanced Russian Military hardware, was at an international military technical forum.
I can't imagine the handful of "international" attendees were taking him seriously and were most likely there for the free drinks and salad bar.
Admiral Beez
Major
What threat could the UK be to Ukrainian territorial integrity? This isn't the 1850s. What Ukraine needed was assurances that others would not stand idly by whilst the nation was attacked.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Sure. That doesn't mean that those attendees were his intended audience.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Was the U.K. a guarantor?
Admiral Beez
Major
I think the point is there were NO guarantors. Ukraine is attacked, dusts off the Budapest Accords and reads the small print that says, we the undersigned countries agree not to mess with your borders, but if anyone else does, including any of the other signatories, too bad for you.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
The truly sad part, is you pretty much correct!
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The US, UK and Russia were the primary signatories in the Budapest Memorandum.
I posted the five (of six) outlines up-thread that the three primary signatories agreed to.
Russia has violated virtually all of the outlines in the accord both in 2014 and again this year.
I posted the five (of six) outlines up-thread that the three primary signatories agreed to.
Russia has violated virtually all of the outlines in the accord both in 2014 and again this year.
buffnut453
Captain
Let's be careful of adopting the retrospectroscope here. The only collective defence security agreement in Europe is NATO. Having NATO members entering into additional security agreements is a de facto escalatory decision (from Russia's perspective).
In addition. Ukraine in 2008 was a very different country from Ukraine today. Democracy was only just starting to bud. The political leadership of Ukraine mostly leaned towards Russia.
Given these realities, expecting the US and UK to act as guarantors for Ukrainian territorial integrity simply is a non-starter.
And for the kickbacks of the future purchases, probably...
Behind Enemy Lines, Ukrainians Tell Russians ‘You Are Never Safe’ (Published 2022)
Clandestine resistance cells are spotting targets, sabotaging rail lines and killing those deemed collaborators as they seek to unnerve Russian forces.
Admiral Beez
Major
Let's hope they're careful. Is a Russian-speaking Ukrainian who cooperates with the occupiers in order to survive fair game?Behind Enemy Lines, Ukrainians Tell Russians ‘You Are Never Safe’ (Published 2022)
Clandestine resistance cells are spotting targets, sabotaging rail lines and killing those deemed collaborators as they seek to unnerve Russian forces.www.nytimes.com
Death to traitors! Ukraine partisans kill collaborator behind enemy lines
Ukraine partisans have opened a new front, mounting operations far behind enemy lines to target senior Russian officials and Ukrainian collaborators
Will we see scenes like in Paris 1945 in liberated Ukraine?
An ugly carnival: how thousands of French women were treated after D-day
Antony Beevor recounts the brutal treatment meted out to thousands of French women after D-day
If the Ukrainian resistance and partisans aren't careful it's only a matter of time before innocent civilians are killed. The West's appetite for helping Ukraine is not without limits.
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at6
1st Sergeant
What did he do? Re-invent the sling shot?Putler's brain is obviously not firing on all cylinders.
Putin brags that Russian weapons are 'years, perhaps even decades' ahead of rivals as his army pulls old Soviet-era tanks out of deep storage due to losses in Ukraine
Heavy armor losses in Ukraine forced Russia to pull obsolete tanks out of storage to replace more modern tanks destroyed or damaged in combat.www.yahoo.com
Diplomatic tensions as Russia's planned replacement embassy scrapped
Australian bureaucrats have scuttled the construction of a new Russian embassy building in Canberra, ordering a "premium" block of land near parliament house be vacated within 20 days.
www.abc.net.au
