"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (10 Viewers)

[cammerjeff]

Since cluster munitions have been shunned / banned why do so many countries still have them ?

Probably the same reason nations still have Nukes, & Poison gas stock piles. Internationally Shunned all but still in stock.

 

[RogerdeLluria]

It seems Macron has just announced to send long rang missiles to Ukraine so more Srorm Shadows (forgot the french name for it)?

SCALP-EG

According to AFP, the first ones are already in Ukraine.

First French Long-range Missiles Already In Ukraine

France has already made a delivery of a number of SCALP long-range cruise missiles to Ukraine, a military source told AFP on Tuesday, after President Emmanuel Macron announced the supplies.

www.barrons.com

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

(forgot the french name for it)?

Le Storm Shadow?

 

[Denniss]

packed with some french cheese and wine .....

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

packed with some french cheese and wine .....

More like:


View: https://youtu.be/xjedOuptmSk

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

But its not 'neutrals' OR critics, is it? Its the UK, Spain, Germany, Italy - and the majority of NATO (and Europe.)

Those criticizing this decision are the critics to whom I refer, so yes, that does mean the powers you mention.

As for worrying about good opinion?

Some might say that after the lessons of Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan etc, the importance of needing world opinion and support and a lasting coalition of 'the willing', might have stuck in the minds of US planners - along with some kind of agreed plan on how things are going to be conducted long term. There's no irony that we're now marking 25 years since the invasion of Iraq. The concern over what kind of war is gong to be fought in Ukraine, how long its going to last and the incremental steps of escalation that are likely to happen, are entirely valid I think.

Many of the critical nations also have the unwanted 'luxury' that many commentators lack; experience of unexploded munitions in their own fields or city streets. That does tend to put a different perspective on things.

Lets play Devils Advocate a minute:

Of course the Ukrainians are fighting for national survival - but what ends justify what means? Whats the red line? Mustard gas a step too far? I mean, they'd be using it on their own land, fighting an invader who's already broken key tenets of the Geneva Convention. So why not? Expanding small arms ammunition? Flamethrowers? Not all nations are signatories to The Geneva convention... Do we supply them with weapons we wouldn't use?

Times change and public as well as military opinion changes on whats acceptable and what isn't. War - especially a war that is going to depend upon the cash sacrifice of tax payers and voters - is also a war of opinion and perception. Whether considered naive or not.

If those munitions are going to be broken down into bomblets, this is largely a non issue. If they get used en masse as tube or air-launched cluster munitions, there will be a backlash across mainstream European opinion. Whether its a large one or important in the long run or not, remains to be seen. But it simply cannot and should not be dismissed out of hand. Doing so makes the whole controversy become a QED as it also displays the attitude in some quarters towards diplomacy regarding their allies - which really would be a victory for Putin.

The Ukrainians have decided that using these is worth the risk of losing the PR war. Also, America is not supplying them with weapons we wouldn't use ourselves -- that's a red herring. We're not signatory to that agreement anyway, so there's no hypocrisy on our part.

But hey, it's American and not Turkish, Russian, or Ukrainian cluster weapons. I didn't see this hand-wringing from anyone when those were deployed. Only now. Did you complain about those earlier deployments? Why or why not?

 

[RogerdeLluria]

More like:


View: https://youtu.be/xjedOuptmSk

First 3 seconds are very important too, they saved my life once.

In one of my first visits to US in the late nineties on Sunday morning we decided to have breakfast out, unfortunately the only restaurant around was a McDonalds (hate those american suburbs where basically there is nothing at walking distance).

So when asked "what do you want for drink?" I said "a beer". The cashier started to get nervous and probably was about to call the police. I have no doubt that, had I been pointing to her with a gun and asking for all the cash she would have been more relaxed. Thanks god my fried said to me "remember pulp fiction!".

 

[ThomasP]

There are 2 arguments vs cluster munitions/bomblets.

The primary publicly discussed argument is one of not using them indiscriminately/irresponsibly. The US as an example (the best example?), dropped over 270,000,000 cluster munition/bomblets on Laos. The dud rate is estimated to have been somewhere in the 45% range. A significant % of the dud rate was due to the design - the bomblets were designed either to go off on hitting a somewhat hard surface like the ground, or were designed to be persistent and behave like land mines. The current estimate by the international de-mining organizations is that there are still around 75,000,000 unexploded submunitions/bomblets lying around in Laos.

In the immediate post-Vietnam war era there were as many as 2000 casualties per year (~300 dead and 1700 wounded). The casualty numbers have gradually dropped to around 50 dead each year and about 200 wounded. For the last 20-30 years the casualties were around 75% children under the age of 15.

The 2nd argument (not publicly discussed) is the possible loss of control of such munitions, with the subsequent use by terrorists on Western nations. Imagine what the casualty rate could be if a terrorist organization got ahold of something like a CBU-24 (CBU-24 - Wikipedia & BAK to BSU/BSG - Equipment Listing) and dropped it on a stadium full of people, or on a busy city center. The CBU-24 carries 665x ~1 lb anti-personnel bomblets.

Note that I am in favor of providing cluster munitions to Ukraine, as long as they use them in their own country (for the most part - use on convoys and military bases in the immediate border area in Russia would also be OK in my opinion).

 

[ThomasP]

A video of the Russians dropping CBUs on Aleppo:

"
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnd3IYH7x1o"

 

[SaparotRob]

But its not 'neutrals' OR critics, is it? Its the UK, Spain, Germany, Italy - and the majority of NATO (and Europe.)

As for worrying about good opinion?

Some might say that after the lessons of Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan etc, the importance of needing world opinion and support and a lasting coalition of 'the willing', might have stuck in the minds of US planners - along with some kind of agreed plan on how things are going to be conducted long term. There's no irony that we're now marking 25 years since the invasion of Iraq. The concern over what kind of war is gong to be fought in Ukraine, how long its going to last and the incremental steps of escalation that are likely to happen, are entirely valid I think.

Many of the critical nations also have the unwanted 'luxury' that many commentators lack; experience of unexploded munitions in their own fields or city streets. That does tend to put a different perspective on things.

Lets play Devils Advocate a minute:

Of course the Ukrainians are fighting for national survival - but what ends justify what means? Whats the red line? Mustard gas a step too far? I mean, they'd be using it on their own land, fighting an invader who's already broken key tenets of the Geneva Convention. So why not? Expanding small arms ammunition? Flamethrowers? Not all nations are signatories to The Geneva convention... Do we supply them with weapons we wouldn't use?

Times change and public as well as military opinion changes on whats acceptable and what isn't. War - especially a war that is going to depend upon the cash sacrifice of tax payers and voters - is also a war of opinion and perception. Whether considered naive or not.

If those munitions are going to be broken down into bomblets, this is largely a non issue. If they get used en masse as tube or air-launched cluster munitions, there will be a backlash across mainstream European opinion. Whether its a large one or important in the long run or not, remains to be seen. But it simply cannot and should not be dismissed out of hand. Doing so makes the whole controversy become a QED as it also displays the attitude in some quarters towards diplomacy regarding their allies - which really would be a victory for Putin.

I believe I see your point.
What we see as a legitimate weapon against military targets, not civilian population areas, world opinion reflexively views as "war crime". As we are the "good guys", we cannot condone weapons with certain names (cluster bomb) at all. It is irrelevant to the good folks sitting comfortably at home that they give criminal governments a free pass.

 

[SaparotRob]

packed with some french cheese and wine .....

I believe Peskov brings the whine.

 

[RogerdeLluria]

Package announced by Germany
- 2x Additional Patriot launchers
- 40x Additional Marder 1A3 IFV
- 25x Leopard 1A5 MBT
- 5x Bergepanzer 2 ARV
- 25,000 155mm artillery shells
- 1x Luna Recon UAV
- Engineering / demining equipment
- Tactical medical package

 

[GrauGeist]

Wouldn't it be more like L'ombre de la Tempête?

 

[Glider]

Confirmation that the General was killed by a Storm Shadow. Source Daily Mail

Russian general known personally by Putin is killed 'by British-supplied Storm Shadow missile'

• Ukrainian and Russian sources reported the Tsokov had been killed in the attack
• Britain supplied its long range Storm Shadow missiles to Ukraine earlier this year

Vladmir Putin has lost another top general 'in a strike by British supplied Storm Shadow missiles', according to both Ukrainian and Russian sources.

Lieutenant-General Oleg Tsokov, 51, was personally known to the dictator and had been sanctioned by Britain and the EU for his role in the war against Ukraine.

A Ukrainian claim today that the commander had been 'liquidated' was later supported by Russian channels with key military links.

Pro-war Russian Telegram channel Voenkory Russkoy Vesny admitted that 'as a result of the attack by Storm Shadow cruise missiles on the command post of the 58th Army in the Berdiansk region, Lt-Gen Oleg Tsokov [...] was killed.'

 

[Frog]

packed with some french cheese and wine .....

Pure jealousy of our numerous cheeses and wines with personalities, not the stale gimmicks that can be found elsewhere.
By the way we do not translate Storm Shadow, for us it is the SCALP-EG or MdCN in its naval form.

 

[Greg Boeser]

Pure jealousy of our numerous cheeses and wines with personalities, not the stale gimmicks that can be found elsewhere.

 

[SaparotRob]

I really wish there was a "blowing a raspberry" emoji.

 

[Denniss]

This was rather meant as "Give the Ukrainians something to shoot at the Ruzzians while having something nice to eat and drink afterwards"

 

[GTX]

Ten rubles says Hungary now blocks Sweden.

Explanation: Here is why Hungary blocks Sweden's NATO accession

The political director of PM Orbán explained on Twitter on Thursday evening why Hungary is reluctant to approve Sweden's NATO accession.

dailynewshungary.com

No. As reported below, Hungary said earlier that Budapest would no longer block Sweden's NATO membership:

Türkiye agrees to move ahead with Sweden's NATO bid

Türkiye President Recep Tayyip Erdogan will forward Sweden's accession protocol to the Turkish parliament "as soon as possible", Mr Stoltenberg said ahead of the NATO summit in Vilnius, but the exact timing remains unknown.

www.abc.net.au

 

[GTX]

'Liquidated': Russian commander on Ukraine's blacklist shot dead on run

The Russian military official was shot dead by an unknown assassin while on his morning run after appearing on a Ukrainian blacklist website.

www.abc.net.au