"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (5 Viewers)

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Marcel said:
As a member on this forum, I sometimes wonder how the bombardment of YouTube clips and links to articles help in this thread? Of course you guys are entitled to do it, but I'm questioning the usefulness.
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Fair question. I suppose I would offer the following:

  • It's all information
  • In the case of articles, it is often easier to link to something someone else has written rather than just retype much the same and to then imply it is all your own original opinion
  • In the case of videos, not everyone absorbs information by just reading
  • Videos and articles also provide more detailed analysis/insights, especially when they include interviews involving back and forth Q&A
  • In the case of videos, often they allow one to see actual front line action/activities
  • It all helps keep the war and the Ukrainian people alive to people and not allow it to become a forgotten event
 
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Marcel said:
While I share your opinion about the posted article as can be seen from my reaction in this thread earlier, I do feel that I have to step in here as a moderator.

We we have to remember that everybody approach this from their own side. While I agree I found this article offensive and faulty, I think we have posted plenty of articles and clips here that will be offensive to people who's convictions differ from mine as well.

Looking at the thread, we have an overwhelming majority on one side and and a small minority on the other side. It's easy for the majority to crush the minority. But it's dangerous. It is the cause why a phenomenon like social bubble is a thing.

I would like this forum to be better than Facebook or Twitter in this regard. Maybe I'm looking for an utopia, but I've always been an idealist.

Real freedom of speech means that every voice can be heard. So I would like to invite the "other side", so people who are Pro Trump or even Pro Russian, to speak up. And for all: If you don't agree with what they say, it would be great if you could point out the facts and opinions that you deem wrong in a respectful manner, realising that the chance of you changing the others opinion with that is unlikely. That will never happen with one post.

This way we keep our forum open and inviting for everybody and we won't turn into another toxic Social Media group.

Maybe I'm being unrealistic and naive here, but to say it with Dr King's words: "I have a dream" :)
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Marcel Marcel , firstly, I want to thank you and the other mods (particularly DerAdlerIstGelandet DerAdlerIstGelandet ) for your patience with us on this challenging thread. You do an amazing job managing a thread that clearly sets emotions running.

I also think you do yourself a disservice. I can't recall a single post of yours that has been deliberately offensive or factually incorrect. You've always posted content that has sought to inform and enlighten rather than tear down.

I have no problems debating with people who think America should pull out of Europe, stop getting involved in international affairs, spend more money CONUS etc etc. I get frustrated when folk won't engage reasonably to discuss those topics, even when couched in historical precedents (e.g. appeasement, isolationism etc.).

The nub of the problem is that we're in an era of (to quote Rudy Giuliani) "alternative facts" and there's no willingness, in certain quarters, to even debate whether information is accurate or not. In this case, there was an article posted that was full of inaccuracies and misrepresentations. Efforts were made to point out the fallacies but instead of engaging in the discussion, Bill just turned and ran. We could have done a better job articulating our concerns with the content but, equally, there has to be a willingness by the other party to listen...and, frankly, they aren't.

My biggest fear for civilized society is that we seem increasingly incapable of discussing facts, let alone striving to find common ground. The internet has become a megaphone for people to scream their preconceived perceptions at ever greater volumes and, unfortunately, the sheeple are following blindly.
 
GTX said:
Fair question. I suppose I would offer the following:

  • It's all information
  • In the case of articles, it is often easier to link to something someone else has written rather than just retype much the same and to then imply it is all your own original opinion
  • In the case of videos, not everyone absorbs information by just reading
  • Videos and articles also provide more detailed analysis/insights, especially when they include interviews involving back and forth Q&A
  • In the case of videos, often they allow one to see actual front line action/activities
  • It all helps keep the war and the Ukrainian people alive to people and not allow it to become a forgotten event
Click to expand...
Thanks for answering. My reaction, and to be clear, not acting as a moderator/admin at the moment.
- It's all information
Is it? To me it's a garbled mess of real info and propaganda. The quantity makes it hard for me to pick out the good info. Most of this info I can easily gather by following my own chosen media and news reels and propaganda is just one search action away on YouTube or Facebook.

Personally I prefer quality over quantity. It's fair to say that the quantity here in the thread kept me away from it for the better part of 2 years. I personally find the amount of multi media posts break the flow of discussion and adds to confusion.

So I prefer a couple of well chosen articles/clips over this.

But that's me personally. Not sure how other members see this.
 
An interesting presentation by John McCain back in 2014 around the time that Russia invaded eastern Ukraine and Crimea. It is only a couple of minutes long and is worth listening to.

"https://www.c-span.org/clip/senate-...gas-station-masquerading-as-a-country/5120133"

(you may have to hit refresh after the site loads in order to see the video)

For those of you not already aware of the Russian, US, & UK agreement to protect Ukraine sovereignty, here is the Wiki link to the Budapest Memorandum which is the agreement McCain refers to in his speech. The second paragraph from the top summarizes the agreement very nicely.

"Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia"
 
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Marcel said:
Thanks for answering. My reaction, and to be clear, not acting as a moderator/admin at the moment.
- It's all information
Is it? To me it's a garbled mess of real info and propaganda. The quantity makes it hard for me to pick out the good info. Most of this info I can easily gather by following my own chosen media and news reels and propaganda is just one search action away on YouTube or Facebook.

Personally I prefer quality over quantity. It's fair to say that the quantity here in the thread kept me away from it for the better part of 2 years. I personally find the amount of multi media posts break the flow of discussion and adds to confusion.

So I prefer a couple of well chosen articles/clips over this.

But that's me personally. Not sure how other members see this.
Click to expand...
Everyone to their own I suppose. As I said, different people absorb information in different ways.
 
ThomasP said:
An interesting presentation by John McCain back in 2014 around the time that Russia invaded eastern Ukraine and Crimea. It is only a couple of minutes long and is worth listening to.

"https://www.c-span.org/clip/senate-...gas-station-masquerading-as-a-country/5120133"

(you may have to hit refresh after the site loads in order to see the video)

For those of you not already aware of the Russian, US, & UK agreement to protect Ukraine sovereignty, here is the Wiki link to the Budapest Memorandum which is the agreement McCain refers to in his speech. The second paragraph from the top summarizes the agreement very nicely.

"Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia"
Click to expand...
Something similar I posted recently:

GTX said:
Adding to this, there is also the fact that in 1991, Ukraine became the third largest nuclear power in the world and held about one third of the former Soviet nuclear weapons. However in December 1994 the leaders of Ukraine, Russia, United Kingdom, and the United States signed the Memorandum on Security Assurances in Connection with Ukraine's Accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (also known as the Budapest Memorandum) to provide Ukraine with security assurances in connection with its giving up nuclear weapons. Importantly this included (my bolding and commentary of key points):

1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine. Note fail 1 for Russia

2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. Fail 2 for Russia

3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind. Fail 3 for Russia and arguably a fail for the new US regime too.
Click to expand...
 
GTX said:
Everyone to their own I suppose. As I said, different people absorb information in different ways.
Click to expand...
I would add that I dofind it frustrating at times that many articles/videos have misleading, click-bait style titles which often detracts from the actual content. Alas, I can't change that
 
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