Almost in time. He-162.

[Jack_Hill]

Hi all.
He 162 had never been able to prove her effectiveness in combat conditions.
The reasons are very well known (lack of supplying mostly).
Lack of development of the design himself, certainly, too.
But something i remember in some 93 or 94's' days, shivering in excitation while boarding mae's'162 is :
Boarding an extremely modern a/c.
Highly modern seat angle. Simple, clear instrumentation and controls layout and great "visibility", see below...
Boarding an highly agressive, potent fighter.
And it was much before restauration : cockpit floor, seat, panels,electricals,sides all over stained with millimeters of dust and kind of grease,inside canopy looking like a cigar smoker lived in for 20 years, rust and stains everywhere...
Airframe not being much cleaner...
But still the bird looked very much alive asking : fly me !
So far, i can imagine a real pilot (wich i'm not) like E.Brown had a good first feeling about He 162.

 

[Jack_Hill]

Hi Riacrato.
Yes, MK 108 did proved troublesome with He 162'light aiframe, revealing excessive vibrations, necessitating strenghtening of forward fuselage.
But certainly, having time enough, MK 108 could have been efficient with 162.

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... Patents and copyrights don't apply vs a nation you are attempting to destroy...."

I'm not sure that statement is true, Mr. B. -- however we might wish it to be true. Patents and copyrights don't go out the window during war time.

In Manchester's book on the House of Krupp he details at length how Krupp sued Britain for failure to pay royalties on Krupp-designed artillery fuses that Britain was making and using against Germany at the time. It was early in WW1 and caused a scandal in parliament - and the public even began to think how preposterous of Krupp to sue Britain .... hahah etc, .... after the war ended and faced with the certainty of a Krupp legal victory -- His Magesty's Government of the time - settled the outstanding bill.

 

[davebender]

I agree. He-162 cannon were installed in the sides of the lower fuselage. Weapon mounts should have been a relatively simple fix.

That bubble canopy looks outstanding. Visibility should have been great in all directions except straight back.

Internal fuel = 278.6 U.S. gallons.
Fuel consumption @ max cruise = 260 gal per hour.
The He-162 is often stated to have a 30 minute endurance. They must mean 30 minutes after take off and climb to combat altitude. Hard points for a standard 300 liter drop tank under each wing should give you an additional 30 minutes of loiter time. Or perhaps a permanently attached conformal fuel tank. Losing 20 or 30 mph due to fuel tank drag would still leave the He-162 plenty fast.

 

[davebender]

Not for the full amount. Krupp received only a token payment for British use of the Krupp artillery fuze patent.

 

[tyrodtom]

I agree. He-162 cannon were installed in the sides of the lower fuselage. Weapon mounts should have been a relatively simple fix.

That bubble canopy looks outstanding. Visibility should have been great in all directions except straight back.

Internal fuel = 278.6 U.S. gallons.
Fuel consumption @ max cruise = 260 gal per hour.
The He-162 is often stated to have a 30 minute endurance. They must mean 30 minutes after take off and climb to combat altitude. Hard points for a standard 300 liter drop tank under each wing should give you an additional 30 minutes of loiter time. Or perhaps a permanently attached conformal fuel tank. Losing 20 or 30 mph due to fuel tank drag would still leave the He-162 plenty fast.
View attachment 202573

Max cruise isn't maximum power, and i'd bet it didn't climb at max cruise.
You don't just add hardpoints to wooden wings and hang 500+ pounds on them without some redesign, especially those wings.

I don't think the ground handling with 500 lbs under each wing would be too pleasant with that narrow main gear, it looks even narrower than the Me109.

 

[michaelmaltby]

The $$$$ amount doesn't matter ..... the principle was recognized and supported ..... war doesn't negate legal conventions such as patents.

MM

 

[Denniss]

He 162 had 475kg of fuel + additional 105 kg for running-up the engine and take-off. An overload condition was planned with 200kg of extra fuel.
This 30 min endurance was calculated with 200kg extra fuel for full power at sea level, at 11km calculated endurance was 85 min. Calculated endurance at sea level without extra fuel and full power was 20 min.

 

[Jack_Hill]

I agree, almost in every points excepting 2X300L wing mounted auxiliary tanks.
I do not think He 162 bolted wooden single piece wings, with no spar, could withstand such a load.
One good hard point should locate under the light metal fuselage,between mainwheels.
Another question i ask myself is : what the hell the RLM was wishing He 162 to become ?
A fighter interceptor ?
A pulk-zerstörer ?
Both of two ?
If possessing such a small, light, fast, quick roll rater, why trying to turn her into an heavy impotent truck ?
If a zerstorer, the a/c will never be able to carry half the armament of the me 262.
If a fighter/escort fighters interceptor, i guess she meet the match.
Yes, turbojet of its time had very high fuel consumption, though lowering with altitude, like any today's'turbojet.
But if (as i think He 162 should be) used as a fighter/escort interceptor, i guess an underbelly aerodynamic 200L jettisonable (or not) tank, 2X MK 151-20 would be enough to reach and give heavy occupation for escorting P 51's while 262's engage bombers.
And if still not enough range, solid fuel take off rocket was possible.

 

[davebender]

Dirt cheap lightweight fighter to succeed the Me-109.

IMO two cannon (either MG151/20 or 3cm Mk108) are plenty of firepower provided both weapons are mounted on the centerline. Lightweight R4M FF rockets are also possible.

Short combat radius is the trade off required to achieve high performance in such an inexpensive aircraft. However you still need adequate endurance to get the job done. You don't want an aircraft like the Me-163 which had awe inspiring performance but was likely to run out of fuel 5 minutes after climbing to 30,000 feet.

 

[Jack_Hill]

Hi Davebender
Yes, two racks of 12 R4M could be an option.
Wing should withstand weight/drag with very low performance loss.
But what for ?
Killing a fighter natural qualities, trading a promising fighter to fighter interceptor for a poor (like eg. Bf 109G6/R2 or R4) bomber interceptor ?
I may be wrong, but me 262 to my eyes, already had shoulders enough to do the job.
I agree with short range terms about 162, but isn't it there a bit of exageration comparing her with Me 163 ?
Structurals, engine improvements and rüstzeiten could have, with time, widely increase her operational efficiency and range.
And absolutly yes, 2X MK 151-20 or MK 108 is plenty of firepower mounted in a/c centerline.

 

[davebender]

He-162C (swept wings) costs about half as much as the Me-262 but it's almost as capable. So the Me-262 can end production when the He-162C enters service in large numbers. Perhaps that would allow the He-162C to be constructed of aluminum.

 

[Milosh]

Would the He162C be as capable as the improved models of the Me262 that would be coming off the production lines when the He162C became available?

 

[davebender]

If the program is properly supported then by 1946 the He-162C will be armed with a pair of MG213 revolver cannon and powered by a better engine. It could probably handle any aerial threat prior to 1950. Isn't that good enough for an aircraft that costs so little to produce?

 

[Jack_Hill]

Dear Davebender,
Yes, you're probably right.
Me 262 was expensive, high diesel fuel consumer, might not have much operational/performance improvements possibilities, coupled with already obsolescent powerplant.
Maybe a dead-end design.
But, by late 44, she was the only heavy fighter, operation ready, that fast with such a firepower.
Meanwhile, tactics and training processes were still to be created.
Fuel supplying troubles.
Daily straffed airfields.
Exhausted pilots.
Global german disorganisation.
He 162, his further operational developement, her crews and in general, Germany did not have any chance for further hope.
I do my best not abusing of "maybe" versions (though fascinating, some way)
I do prefer focusing on operational aircrafts.

 

[Milosh]

If the program is properly supported then by 1946 the He-162C will be armed with a pair of MG213 revolver cannon and powered by a better engine. It could probably handle any aerial threat prior to 1950. Isn't that good enough for an aircraft that costs so little to produce?

And the Me262 would not have MG213s as well? The Ta183 would have been a more capable a/c.

How did other light fighters fair?

 

[Shortround6]

Again with the German revolver cannon in 1946??

Give it a rest.

Light fighters never work against the SAME Generation heavy fighter.

They only work against fighters using older technology.

as far as sticking more powerful engines in the He 162 goes, it could be done but please remember that the drag and aerodynamic loads on the air frame go up with the square of the speed so that going from 500mph to 600mph is a 44% increase in loads on the airframe.

 

[davebender]

No argument there but Dr. Tank will encounter the same problems as he did historically when working on the Ta-183 design in Argentina. The perfected Ta-183 is unlikely to enter service prior to 1948. Meanwhile the perfected He-162C would be in service before the end of 1945.

 

[Jack_Hill]

Hi Milosh,
1946...
In 1946, Germans and all european peoples did not care a bag of beans for He 162.
Just prefering... The bag of succulent beans.
WWII was ended, and i'm sure you know who won it.
1946, Every european people was in starvation, hoping being able to feed the kids.
Every morning.
Hi Shortround6,
And what happens with a smaller,lighter, higher thrust, less fuel consuming turbojet wich was the (proven) ineluctable fate of turbojets ?
And yes, like Me 262, He 162, swept wings or not, had a limited operational improvement abilities.

 

[davebender]

The A6M worked just fine vs the F4F.
The Me-109 worked just fine vs P-38s and P-47s.
The F-16 worked just fine vs MiG23s and MiG25s.