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The .50 only reached its maximum effectiveness when the design of the Soviet BS-32 armor-piercing incendiary shell was copied, and then its firepower doubled.
Oerlikon was advertising 75 rd drums (and possibly the 90 rd drums?) when the RAF was shopping for a cannon-armed fighters in the late 1930s; their belt-fed cannons offered to the British in 1930s were not accepted.And they should quickly make long 4 row magazines for 100 shells. Length around 80 centimeters is quite managable.
This may be nit picking. British .5in ammo came in two types. The .5in Vickers, rather widely used, both Semi-Rimmed (export/license) and Rimless (British use) and the .5in High Velocity or class D. Once you add the "0" into the designation you are talking about the .50 BrowningBritish:
- not giving the .50 HMG a try was a mistake IMO, so this time around they should've try it - there is no reason that each Hurricane and Spitfire already by 1938 could not be armed with 4 HMGs, that each weapon is at least an equivalent of the Italian HMG; the HMG will also be a much better self-defense weapon than a LMG of the era
The 20mm Oerlikon guns were in a state of flux in the 1930s and Oerlikon was not actually shipping guns by the hundreds. Exactly when they hit the published rates of fire with the different guns may be questioned?- as a step up - buy 20mm guns at Oerlikon for the RAF, too, not just for Army and RN; T. WIllians favored (and he still is, if I'm not mistaken) the FFL - again, the Oerlikons should've been available earlier than the Hispano
Vickers .50 was introduced in 1933. In 1935 (IIRC) the RAF decided to arm new planes with 4 x 20mm cannons. The window of opportunity was too short!Let's not assume that, when people say '.50', that automatically means '.50 BMG of 1939'.
The best reason is the Oerlikon FF.there is no reason that each Hurricane and Spitfire already by 1938 could not be armed with 4 HMGs
Even a 60-round drum would not fit completely into the wing, requiring a bulge. A 100-round (or larger) flat magazine would allow for a large supply of ammunition without aerodynamic loss.Oerlikon was advertising 75 rd drums (and possibly the 90 rd drums?) when the RAF was shopping for a cannon-armed fighters in the late 1930s; their belt-fed cannons offered to the British in 1930s were not accepted.
Solothurn was making 100 rd drums, that Germans used on the Luftwaffe's 20mm MG C30L guns on the pivot in the Flak role.
The people doing this are different than those who can create a belt feed, and the resources to produce such magazines are microscopic on the scale of war expenditures.IOW - there is no need to reinvent the wheel; better spend money and time (the most precious commodity) on making the cannons belt-fed.
There is many years available for the British to perfect the Vickers guns for the wing mounts. Ammo that is light will be a benefit when the engine power figures and the required firing duration are taken into account.The British had no desire to use the Vickers guns in aircraft in locations where the crew could not reach them which rather limits the choice of exiting guns outside of the Soviet Union to the American gun (or Belgian license) and the Italian guns. The Breda-SAFAT or the Scotti, and the Breda-SAFAT weighed the same as the US Browning while using a less powerful cartridge although it did fire a bit faster. 700rpm instead of 600rpm or a bit under.
The Ammo in the British .5in Vickers B and the Italian guns had about the same velocity as the American gun/ammo but the American gun/ammo used heavier bullets. About 29% heavier than the British .5in Vickers ammo.
In 1938 the ".50" cal armament may have been a bit better than the eight .303s but not by much. The problem is that it is heavier and with the 1938 Hurricanes using two pitch props (forget the fixed pitch) that is a problem. Each American .50 is 2.8-2.9 times as heavy as the American .50 and more importantly, the 334 per gun ammo load of the Hurricane is only enough for just under 150rpg for four .50 cal Brownings. Going to 200rpg adds 60lbs and the change of guns adds about 40lbs. Maybe you can make up some of that with just using 4 mounts and not eight even though each mount is heavier?
Compared with what Hispano was shipping, Oerlikon was bed of roses. British making a deal for licence production of the Oerlikon guns takes no more ingenuity than what the French and the Germans did.The 20mm Oerlikon guns were in a state of flux in the 1930s and Oerlikon was not actually shipping guns by the hundreds. Exactly when they hit the published rates of fire with the different guns may be questioned?
Hispano got into cannon business because Oerlikon could not deliver they guns fast enough to equip the French (D 510s?) and they saw room for improvement in the rate of fire.
You can get Oerlikons sooner than you can get Hispano's but are you getting the newest, fastest firing versions?
RAF decided to introduce cannons in 1937. The 4 cannon battery on a fighter was decided on a later date.Vickers .50 was introduced in 1933. In 1935 (IIRC) the RAF decided to arm new planes with 4 x 20mm cannons. The window of opportunity was too short!
The best reason is the Oerlikon FF.
There is no point in introducing a transitional weapon when the target one is already available.
This is a very good replacement for 0.3 (in general), but not its successor in terms of performance.Argentina installed the Madsen on it's Hawk 75s. The data I have is:
It seems that all attempts to describe an alternative gun end up describing the NS-23.Hence my ... boring idea that the 1st consideration when a new gun is designed is that of the limitations of the platform, that most numerous were the 1-engined fighters with a tractor propeller. The guns with prominent gas tube will demand more space than the guns operating on the short recoil system. Going with the ~700m/s MV as the target, the gun, even if it is a 30mm type, should be able to fit both in the wings as well as as a motor cannon. Even easier to do if the gun is of 20, 23 or 25mm calibre.
Nope.It seems that all attempts to describe an alternative gun end up describing the NS-23.
I didn't expect any other answer.Nope.
Very close - in the case of ammunition, the design space is from 23x115 to 30x111. Mine shells are preferred because they can have better ballistics at practical distances while maintaining or even higher effectiveness against air targets.It seems that all attempts to describe an alternative gun end up describing the NS-23.
The British did not bother, that is why they adopted the Browning in .303.There is many years available for the British to perfect the Vickers guns for the wing mounts. Ammo that is light will be a benefit when the engine power figures and the required firing duration are taken into account.
The weight comparison are for four .50 cal Brownings vs eight .303 Brownings. Yes the US ammo was heavy.My suggestion was the Vickers, not the BMG.
The 'big Breda' fired a 3.5 times heavier projectile than the 7.7mm. That is a lot better when the bullet needs to defeat the modern aircraft from the late 1930s and on. I have no intention of having 8 HMGs on the Hurricanes and the like.
A lot of this depends on WHEN.Compared with what Hispano was shipping, Oerlikon was bed of roses. British making a deal for licence production of the Oerlikon guns takes no more ingenuity than what the French and the Germans did.
Hispano got into cannon business probably because Birgkit reckoned that he can make a better gun, and because he would not need to pay royalties to Oerlikon for the HS-9.
When compared with the French fighters armed with HS-9, British will be carrying double the number of cannons (although I'd probably want the FFL derivative, not the S derivative). But most importantly, they will have had actual cannons already before the war.
Yes, it is the reason why the quoted mass of MK.V and MG 151/20 is almost the same.Weights are also a bit of a fudge. Most weight charts do not include the belt feeder on HS guns
But there is a catch. You always need some magazine even for the belt, that also has its weight, and drums were extremely convenient as self contained structural elements. The belt also has its non-zero mass. Therefore, the additional cost of the magazine mass in relation to the belt was much smaller.Oerlikon guns do not include drum weights.
Drum weights for the short FF were
45 rounds......................7.4kg
60 rounds......................8.3kg
75 rounds......................10kg
100 rounds....................12kg
all of these are empty weights.
Actually the US had 3 grades of 30-06 ammo, aircraft (or aircraft machine gun), ground machine gun and rifle. For the US the main difference was the quality of the brass.This is why most planes that used Vickers or Maxim MGs on them had them either used by aerial gunners or were mounted in the cockpits of fighters, to clear any jams that might happen. And that's even allowing for (from what I read) aircraft MG ammo being made to significantly higher quality control standards than infantry ammo. For the RAF, the AN/M2 .30 Browning was more tolerant of ammo variations, which is why it was preferred, as an ammo quality issue was less likely to jam a Browning unless the round was a total dud. And you can't have a pilot clear a jam/re-cock a gun that's mounted in a plane's wing when in flight.
Works for meThere was an alternative to "perfecting" the Vickers.
Modify the big Browning (scale it down) to fit the British .5 (12.7x81) cartridge like the Japanese did for the Ho-103. Yes it is going to need development work (time). It is not designing a new gun from scratch. You get a smaller (shorter), lighter (23kg?) gun that can fire faster (bolt has to travel a shorter distance).
Disadvantage between the .5 and .50 during the 30s was that the .5 used the lighter bullet and will not have the same penetration or the same long range ballistics. But the cost (installed weight) is more.
A lot of this depends on WHEN.
There were 3 stages of rate of fire improvements. So when each test (or planned purchase) was made can really affect the out come.
If this is not a crucial endorsement for the Oerlikon and not for Hispano, I don't know what it isWhat was done in 1940 and later does not count for 1934-37 tests.