any other info on the Ta 153?

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Crimea_River said:
What Callum said.
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Respectfully, I fail to see how scanning a small excerpt would constitute a copyright infringement. Unless I'm missing something it seems that it would almost certainly fall under Fair Use and thus also not violate the site rules.

In any case, I'm sorry, I should have been clearer in my request, but since I was busy with something I didn't have the time to think over what I was posting.

I don't care about scanned pages, what I meant to say was if he would reconsider about giving a concise amount of information on the aircraft since there seems not to be not a lot on the internet about it.
 
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Scanned from a 50 year old publication, which clearly is wrong? Should the title be Ta183?

 

To help you avoid getting prosecuted:

What Is Fair Use? Fair Dealing Copyright Explained.

"If the creator or owner has lost potential revenue through the re-use of their work, it is not likely to be fair."

You have asked someone to scan in images, obviously so you dont have to buy the book.

If the book were out of print, it would be different as obviously the author cannot lose revenue by doing so. However even then
"fair use" is entirely discretionary, has no absolute definitions and its really up to what mood the publisher is in to decide
if you get into trouble.

"No part of this book may be reproduced in any form, or by any means without prior permission in writing from the publisher"

If someone did the same thing here with my book - I will absolutely use legal means to have the images removed.

I hope that clears it up.

Its funny, I used to think people whining about copyright were miserable greedy old windbags, then I spent 5 years writing one
for a profit of about -£25,000 and amazingly now I understand what they were on about.
 
Snowygrouch said:
To help you avoid getting prosecuted:
What Is Fair Use? Fair Dealing Copyright Explained.
Click to expand...
I would like to preface my post with this: I'm not arguing with you because I particularly care about gaining information on the Ta 153, that is largely irrelevant to me in comparison to the precedent that you are attempting to establish: that photocopies of select excerpts of literature constitutes a violation of fair use. If this were true it would have a remarkable effect on this and other forums.

With that being said, I'm not sure why you are quoting British law when, according to ICANN Lookup, ww2aircraft.net is registered to the United States and as such is subject to American laws. American laws are in fact relatively clear on the subject in question. According to Section 107 of Copyright Law of the United States (Title 17)


Using the U.S. government's guidelines on each of these criteria, let's go through each of these points and see if posting a small excerpt about the Ta 153 from Mr. Hitchcock's book would violate Fair Use.

(1) Purpose and character of the use, including whether the use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
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In this case, the purpose of its use is almost entirely for non-profit educational purposes, this is very clear. Additionally, if the poster added his own analysis to the excerpt, it would even more so constitute fair use.

(2) Nature of the copyrighted work
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Since the excerpt is from a work of non-fiction rather than fiction it is more likely to support a claim of fair use.

(3) Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
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Since, I imagine, the amount of pages dedicated to the Ta 153 is very small in comparison to the rest of the book which covers a different aircraft, the Ta 152, it would most likely be in accordance with fair use in this regard as well. If the excerpt is even as much as 10 pages long (out of 208 pages) it would still be less than 5%(!) of the entire book. Additionally, since the excerpt deals with the Ta 153 and not the Ta 152, the argument that the "heart" of the book was copied would not be valid.

I dedicated space here to the expanded quote as it deals directly with your claim that posting the excerpt would violate fair use as it would lose the publisher revenue. As you can see, according to U.S. law it comes down to scale. I can assure you, neither I or most other people can afford to pay $70 USD for a book whose primary subject is not what I'm interested in. In fact, it is actually more likely that I and others would purchase a book if I were given a small sample to read. If I can see that an author possesses an excellent writing style, list of sources/footnotes, grasp of the facts, etc, I would be much more willing to buy the book. Similarly, it would be very difficult for a publisher to prove that the widespread excerpt of a subject that is not even the main focus of the work would cause substantial harm for the same reasons I listed above.

Even if I granted you this last point, that a small excerpt would cause harm to the sales of the book, that would not immediately exclude it from being Fair Use. First, it can't be just any harm (such as a single person refusing to buy the book), it has to be significant. Secondly, even if it deemed to harm the sales of the book, the previous three factors still have a significant bearing on if a court would deem it Fair Use or not.

Snowygrouch said:
However even then
"fair use" is entirely discretionary, has no absolute definitions and its really up to what mood the publisher is in to decide
if you get into trouble.
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Publishers aren't stupid, they know just as well as everyone that they have to clearly prove a work violated Fair Use. If there's a significant risk that they would be unable to do so, for the reasons I have listed above, it would be highly unlikely for them to do so. I can only imagine the amount of images, copies, and quotations that have been posted in compliance of Fair Use on this forum for almost the last 20 years. Are you aware of anytime where a publisher or author "went after" this website or one of its posters for copyright infringement for a posting of a small excerpt?

Snowygrouch said:
If someone did the same thing here with my book - I will absolutely use legal means to have the images removed.
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And, assuming they only posted a small, irrelevant excerpt, you would perhaps likely lose the case, at least in the United States.

If I may ask you, is it really worth it? I know this website is different because you're an active user and anyone can directly ask you any question they like. However, let's assume differently. Say someone posted a small excerpt from your book 10 years after it was published on a small, niche forum full of nice, curious people interested in alternate history and aircraft, wondering how the war would have progressed differently if X occurred. If someone posted a few pages from your book to help clarify a vague question of contention, would you really "go after" the poster and the website? Would it really be worth the legal fees, the possibility of losing, and potential damage to your reputation? I would hope that you would reconsider and think about the potential increase in book sales that this excerpt could bring you, and more importantly, the distribution of knowledge and education that this and many forums are all about.

By the way I did enjoy your online lecture, I found it informative and insightful, and I look forward to your book when it releases very soon. I mean no disrespect by this small disagreement/debate and hope that we can leave here amicably.
 
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SpicyJuan11 said:
By the way I did enjoy your online lecture, I found it informative and insightful, and I look forward to your book when it releases very soon. I mean no disrespect by this small disagreement/debate and hope that we can leave here amicably.
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Thats a much nicer message than most people bother with, but I would still refer you to the "sticky" post on the announcements section of this forum.

Sadly this is a case of a few spoiling it for everyone, because (for example) my book will never be released as an e-book, (I`ve been asked by several people if it would be) because within 24h it will have the DRM removed and will be offerered for free download on some forum or other. I wish it were not so, but to deal with THAT issue, the law has to be pretty tight on it, which is silly on some levels, but it is still where we are at. Like it or not.

 
Don't get me wrong, I do agree with the sentiment (and the law) that all authors share about illegal books. I can only imagine the time, effort, and expense invested in writing and publishing your own book, only for it to be distributed illegally and read without you receiving any compensation.

However, there is a large question regarding excerpts and thankfully we have Fair Use regarding it. Thank you for posting that announcements section, I found the "Rules" page to be unhelpful. However, that post seems to be primarily directed against the posting of links and uploading of entire books and excerpts seem to be covered under the "make sure to cite and if unsure check with us" section.

I really hope there are some admins or mods that could clarify all this for us as it is very important for this forum. On one hand, although, based on my reading of U.S. Copyright law, it falls under Fair Use to quote/copy a small (cited) excerpt from a book, there are some nasty actors/publishers out there that file copyright claims even when they are very clearly wrong to do so (see YouTube for the worst of these abuses). However if we as a forum do not exercise our legal rights for fear of some sour apple claiming false copyright abuses, you would be losing on a key source of insight and knowledge on this website. For example, imagine not being able to post a simple specification table for an aircraft because of the fear of a copyright claim? Like I said earlier, the whole point of this forum is to share and discuss knowledge and ideas, and this goal would be severely restricted with a site wide band on quotations from, and copies of, excerpts.

Admins can you please make an announcement on this?
 

I found this which might be useful:
Copyright and Fair Use Guidelines- UMGC Library.

Generally, if you post an excerpt which is less than 10% of the entire work, such as my request on the chapter regarding the Ta 153, you would in all likelihood win against a copyright claim in U.S. courts.
 

Nope:

"Without consent, you ordinarily cannot use another person's protected expression in a way that impairs (or even potentially impairs) the market for his or her work."

The 'Fair Use' Rule: When Use of Copyrighted Material Is Acceptable

As I said, this is because for a current work, which someone is wanting sections of - this shows that sales were harmed and therefore you will not get away with it,
also, why would you even TRY to push the rules by posting an authors work?

To help you avoid trouble, if you (or anyone else) posts sections of my book on here, I will sue you. I hope that avoids any room for confustion.

Fair use (and yes I am talking about US policy) has very strict guidelines on it, and unless its for classroom use, or critique etc (like a book review)
you`re in trouble. Posting something that someone REQUESTED you to, directly harming sales, (because they then dont have to buy it)
will get you and this forum in serious trouble.

Even the quote you posted says so, "This rule has been criticized and should not be relied upon in determining whether a use will be considered a fair use."
 
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Hi, just saw you replied.
Snowygrouch said:
As I said, this is because for a current work, which someone is wanting sections of - this shows that sales were harmed and therefore you will not get away with it
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There's a big difference between posting a page or two vs entire chapters. This also leaves out the counterargument that posting a page could actually increase sales since people have a small sample and idea of what the work is, and would have more motivation to buy it. Keep in mind as the copyright claimant it is up to you to prove that sales were harmed. This is no easy task because saying that a single person did not buy a book because of the excerpt is not necessarily enough. Courts weigh the extent to which the damage was "widespread":

"If the new work competes in a different market or the effect on the original work in the same market is negligible, courts generally find this factor in favor of the alleged infringer."
Captain Evan R. Seamone, The Limits of Fair Use in Military Scholarship: When, How, and from Whom to Request Permission to Use Copyrighted Works, Army Law., January 2010, at 16

"The fourth factor is "the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work." 17 U.S.C. § 107(4). The court looks to not only the market harm caused by the particular infringement, but also to whether, if the challenged use becomes widespread, it will adversely affect the potential market for the copyrighted work. Harper, 471 U.S. at 568, 105 S.Ct. 2218. This analysis requires a balancing of "the benefit the public will derive if the use is permitted and the personal gain the copyright owner will receive if the use is denied." MCA, Inc. v. Wilson, 677 F.2d 180, 183 (2d Cir.1981)."
Bill Graham Archives v. Dorling Kindersley Ltd., 448 F.3d 605 (2d Cir. 2006)

Snowygrouch said:
why would you even TRY to push the rules by posting an authors work?
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Because the whole point of this forum is educational; to share information with each other on extremely niche and hard to find topics. Much information is out of print, hard to find, and extremely expensive. Not everyone can afford to shell out $50-100 for a tidbit of information they could otherwise get from someone posting a paragraph-long excerpt from a book. This is one of the main reasons why Fair Use exists. Posting entire chapters or the whole book would of course not be legal and is not what I'm arguing for.

I am not "TRYING" to push the bounds of any rules, I am merely exercising the rights which Fair Use provides me.

Snowygrouch said:
To help you avoid trouble, if you (or anyone else) posts sections of my book on here, I will sue you. I hope that avoids any room for confustion.
Click to expand...
First of all, I would hope you would notify a transgressing member before you take any sort of legal action. Second, what do you consider a "section"? Would you sue someone for posting 2-3 sentences? In 30 years, would you really try to sue someone for posting a page of your book? I understand that you have very recently released your book and spent many thousands of dollars and hours and so it's a raw subject for you, but please do try to think of the underlying goal and motivations of it all.

Snowygrouch said:
Fair use (and yes I am talking about US policy) has very strict guidelines on it, and unless its for classroom use, or critique etc (like a book review) you`re in trouble
Click to expand...
You conveniently left out all the rest of the categories which DO support what I'm saying.
"Fair use is a legal doctrine that promotes freedom of expression by permitting the unlicensed use of copyright-protected works in certain circumstances. Section 107 of the Copyright Act provides the statutory framework for determining whether something is a fair use and identifies certain types of uses—such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research—as examples of activities that may qualify as fair use".

My whole point is this: if someone posts a 1-2 page excerpt from a factual book (of say 200+ pages) for non-profit, educational use which furthers public interest, it is highly likely that it falls entirely under Fair Use, and an American Court would side with the defendant and not the copyright claimant.
 
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