Any rational purpose for Ho-229?
- Thread starter delcyros
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Ludwig Prandtl discovered the phenomenon of induced drag and in papers of 1918 and 1933 in particular came up with solutions for wings with the minimum induced drag. These did not apply specifically to aircraft designed as 'flying wings' though two of the great aerodynamicists of the day (Lippisch and Shenstone) were heavily influenced by this work.
It was the solution described in a the 1933 paper that Reimar Horten described as 'Glocken-Auftriebs-Verteilung', GAV in German or 'bell shaped lift distribution', BSLD in English. This solution was approximate and for an unconstrained wing.
The Hortens were interested in this because the very low wing loading on the outboard part of the wing that BSLD offered could help overcome the serious problem of adverse yaw which they had encountered on the H 1 glider (the aircraft turns in the opposite direction to its bank). Essentially with the outboard wing loading close to zero in a BSLD the aileron deflections will cause a near symmetrical increase in drag on both wing tips, hence no yawing moment. It sounds simple enough and can be extrapolated into a situation where if the outboard loading is negative the adverse yaw will be reversed, becoming pro-verse yaw. This will cause the aircraft to turn in the direction in which it is being banked meaning it can be turned with elevons alone, no rudder required.
In practice the problem was much more complicated and the Hortens did not solve it during the war. Horten wings were turned by the so called 'drag rudders'. Lippisch fitted a fin and rudder to the Me 163, not attempting a practical rather than theoretical solution.
Cheers
Steve
"pardon me for Wikipedia. What reasonable purpose might You expect such a plane will serve in? I have read fighter and fighter-bomber but honestly spoken, I don�t believe it. It�s to big for that (big target size in combination with poor climb, slow acceleration and tricky flight handling doesn�t serve well in this capacity)."
Well, I can certainly see a purpose for it. It's faster and climbs better than the ME262 for one. It carries the same 4x30mm cannons as the ME262. It has a higher operational ceiling than the ME262, and a higher operation ceiling than the P51 or P47, two of the best high altitude US fighters.
And, to add to all this, it by accident or purpose however you want to argue it had some stealth abilities.
I'd think as an interceptor it would be great - a terrific B17 destroyer with it's combination of speed, altitude, and firepower.
And as a bomber it would also do very well I would think. In addition to the stealth abilities, what plane is going to catch it?
Perhaps if Hitler would have put less into the V programs and some of the other less worthwhile projects, and more into jets, they would have been around early enough to make a difference.
Imagine hundreds of ME262's in '43, and Hortons shortly after. With skilled pilots, and before the allied bombing destroyed fuel production. Would have been a much tougher opponent.
And one thing to point out as well - Many german jets that were shot down were shot down in the take-off and landing phases, which is really only possible to do if you have massive air superiority. Put the air superiority on a more even keel and the jets would have a much better kill ratio.
We can look at the Japanese late war fighters as desperation attempts as well - they never lived up to their potential, due to fuel, unskilled pilots, and production quality issues. Other than production, this sounds almost the same as the German situation - only difference is that these were traditional prop driven planes.
Well, I can certainly see a purpose for it. It's faster and climbs better than the ME262 for one. It carries the same 4x30mm cannons as the ME262. It has a higher operational ceiling than the ME262, and a higher operation ceiling than the P51 or P47, two of the best high altitude US fighters.
And, to add to all this, it by accident or purpose however you want to argue it had some stealth abilities.
I'd think as an interceptor it would be great - a terrific B17 destroyer with it's combination of speed, altitude, and firepower.
And as a bomber it would also do very well I would think. In addition to the stealth abilities, what plane is going to catch it?
Perhaps if Hitler would have put less into the V programs and some of the other less worthwhile projects, and more into jets, they would have been around early enough to make a difference.
Imagine hundreds of ME262's in '43, and Hortons shortly after. With skilled pilots, and before the allied bombing destroyed fuel production. Would have been a much tougher opponent.
And one thing to point out as well - Many german jets that were shot down were shot down in the take-off and landing phases, which is really only possible to do if you have massive air superiority. Put the air superiority on a more even keel and the jets would have a much better kill ratio.
We can look at the Japanese late war fighters as desperation attempts as well - they never lived up to their potential, due to fuel, unskilled pilots, and production quality issues. Other than production, this sounds almost the same as the German situation - only difference is that these were traditional prop driven planes.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The German jet program was doomed from the start by the apathy the RLM showed towards the potential of the jet aircraft. The He280 was the true fighter in the bunch, the Me262 being more along the lines of "heavy fighter" or interceptor. The HoIX (Ho229/Go229) still had some bugs to work out and as such, was never really tried or proven in a real-world situation. The prototypes weren't the finished product, so we'll never really know how it would have done in battle. The HoVII did prove itself to be very stable, the props being driven by two Argus engines. This was never intended to be a combat platform like it's big brother, the HoIX, of course.
In addition, the Japanese were working on their own jets: Nakajima Kikka, the KI-201 and even a license-built Me163 (Mitsubishi J8M). They had a suicide aircraft along the lines on the Natter Viper (Ba349), though different: the Yokosuka MXY7 "Ohka"
The transition from propeller to jets was a turning point in aviation history, it just so happened (fortunately) that the timing and conditions kept it from happening until late in the war.
Don't under estimate the Japanese. They had several propeller aircraft that were not only showing potential, but proved themselves to be just as deadly as their Allied counterparts and in several cases, moreso. This was a case of "too little, too late" that was shared by the Luftwaffe.
In addition, the Japanese were working on their own jets: Nakajima Kikka, the KI-201 and even a license-built Me163 (Mitsubishi J8M). They had a suicide aircraft along the lines on the Natter Viper (Ba349), though different: the Yokosuka MXY7 "Ohka"
The transition from propeller to jets was a turning point in aviation history, it just so happened (fortunately) that the timing and conditions kept it from happening until late in the war.
Was RLM passive, e.g. in the autumn of 1938 Mauch and Schelp from RLM tried to convince the main German aero engine firms (DB, Junkers, BMW and Bramo) to began development of gas turbine engines, but were only partly successful. What other air ministry was even nearly so active at that time to promote jet engines?
Juha
"Don't under estimate the Japanese. They had several propeller aircraft that were not only showing potential, but proved themselves to be just as deadly as their Allied counterparts and in several cases, moreso. This was a case of "too little, too late" that was shared by the Luftwaffe."
I did not underestimate them. My point is while they had some fine aircraft, and could go toe-to-toe with US aircraft or better in the right situation were hampered by problems of their own, such as insufficient and just bad fuel in some cases, problems with the manufacture of the planes with the quality of work no equal to earlier standards, and a lack of trained pilots.
Not to mention the fact that like the Germans, they were heavily outnumbered. Quantity has a quality of it's own
"In addition, the Japanese were working on their own jets: Nakajima Kikka, the KI-201 and even a license-built Me163 (Mitsubishi J8M). They had a suicide aircraft along the lines on the Natter Viper (Ba349), though different: the Yokosuka MXY7 "Ohka""
That I am aware of, I was just trying to illustrate that if the japanese late war prop planes were judged by the same parameters as the German jets were, they should be considered acts of desperation as well, except that they were prop planes. In other words delving into the world of jet planes does not make it desperation. The Natter, maybe LOL, but in general, no. One certainly cannot consider the ME262 an act of desperation.
Were they rushed into service without extensive testing? Yes. But the same can be said for many weapon used in WW2, such as the soviet PPD40, the US M3 grease gun, the Panther and Tiger I tanks. I'm sure I could come up with a fair amount more if given a few minutes, but the idea is the issue, not the specifics. It's commonplace to rush things into production without proper testing, even more so if one is at a disadvantage. But that does not make it an act of desperation.
By the way, Graugreist, I've always thought the KI84 was a wonderful plane. 400+ without high octane fuel, more manuverable than almost any late model plane, climbs better than anything but a late ME109, pretty heavy armnament.
I did not underestimate them. My point is while they had some fine aircraft, and could go toe-to-toe with US aircraft or better in the right situation were hampered by problems of their own, such as insufficient and just bad fuel in some cases, problems with the manufacture of the planes with the quality of work no equal to earlier standards, and a lack of trained pilots.
Not to mention the fact that like the Germans, they were heavily outnumbered. Quantity has a quality of it's own
"In addition, the Japanese were working on their own jets: Nakajima Kikka, the KI-201 and even a license-built Me163 (Mitsubishi J8M). They had a suicide aircraft along the lines on the Natter Viper (Ba349), though different: the Yokosuka MXY7 "Ohka""
That I am aware of, I was just trying to illustrate that if the japanese late war prop planes were judged by the same parameters as the German jets were, they should be considered acts of desperation as well, except that they were prop planes. In other words delving into the world of jet planes does not make it desperation. The Natter, maybe LOL, but in general, no. One certainly cannot consider the ME262 an act of desperation.
Were they rushed into service without extensive testing? Yes. But the same can be said for many weapon used in WW2, such as the soviet PPD40, the US M3 grease gun, the Panther and Tiger I tanks. I'm sure I could come up with a fair amount more if given a few minutes, but the idea is the issue, not the specifics. It's commonplace to rush things into production without proper testing, even more so if one is at a disadvantage. But that does not make it an act of desperation.
By the way, Graugreist, I've always thought the KI84 was a wonderful plane. 400+ without high octane fuel, more manuverable than almost any late model plane, climbs better than anything but a late ME109, pretty heavy armnament.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Not wanting to hijack the thread, I will certainly agree about the KI-84, but the one that impressed me, especially for such a late war addition, would be the KI-100...that's one that could have caused the Allies some serious trouble if it had appeared well before Spring of 1945.
Shortround6
Major General
Think of the same engine in a Zero earlier in the war.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
I could see the wing design being useful for a bomber and especially a cargo transport.
Not to hijack either, I just don't quite get the love for the KI-100 compared to the KI84. Slower, not as good of a climber, acceleration should also be worse, same weapons mix, I think both were armored? And both were very maneuverable I would think.
The Japanese brass seemed to like it better as well, so you are not alone obviously. Perhaps on this one they came up with a plane that could roll well at high speeds?
The Japanese brass seemed to like it better as well, so you are not alone obviously. Perhaps on this one they came up with a plane that could roll well at high speeds?
Even further still than WW1. Igo Etrich's interest in the zanonia macrocarpa seed led to his gaining a patent for a powered flying wing based on a glider he had built and had flown (by Fraz Wels) in 1905. The same wing plan was used in his Taube aeroplane. Gottlob Espenlaub also had an interest in tailless gliders after WW1, as did Lippisch with his Storch gliders.
Indeed, but tailless gliders/aircraft were devilishly difficult to control. The Hortens adverse yaw problem was just one of many, many problems to afflict such designs. That one problem wasn't solved until the mid 1950s.Being realistic there was never any chance of a service acceptable 'flying wing' being available in the 1940s at all, never mind WW2.
The only aircraft that Lippisch, one of the world's, not just Germany's, great aerodynamicists produced during the 1940s had a conventional fin and rudder. This was no accident, he had found the problems practically, if not theoretically, insurmountable.
The Horten's turned their wings with an extremely inelegant and inefficient system using asymmetric drag, the so called drag rudders.
Cheers
Steve
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
i was going through my father's scrap book from when he was a kid. he subscribed to a news letter called Current Aviation. i have several years from late 42 to sometime in 45. i am begining the process of preserving these and perused the stack. there was an article of the flying wing....along with ones about captured german aircraft. after i preserve them i will scan some and post. it might provide some interesting reading or insights...
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