Ark Royal (91) survives the war

[Admiral Beez]

If Ark Royal isn't hit by a torpedo in Nov. 1941, how do we see her war service?

What do we envision for CAG size and makeup? Some background info...

1. Ark had double the avgas (120000 gal US) of the Illustrious, nearly 50% more bomb and torpedo stowage, and 50' more flight deck including the round down. Illustrious operated 50+ a/c.
2. Ark had three rectangular lifts, two of 45ft by 22ft and one of 45ft by 25ft. The hangar dims were Upper 568ft x 60ft x 16ft; Lower 425ft x 60ft x 16ft.
3. Ark has two BH III catapults: 151' long, launched 11000 lbs @ 66 kts. By war's end these were improved in the Illustrious and Implacable classes to 14000 lbs @ 66kts.

I suggest we eschew talk of modernizing Ark Royal between Nov 1941 to before VE Day, since the obvious mods of lift enlargement, and removal of the double-decker lifts and aft round down will take her out of service just as she's desperately needed.

How clapped out would Ark be by 1945? Would she be scrapped or modernized? She would be ten years old in 1948 or so, and may be easier to modernize than the Illustrious class for operating 1950s fleet air arm aircraft.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Some good videos...

 

[Kevin J]

If Ark Royal isn't hit by a torpedo in Nov. 1941, how do we see her war service?

What do we envision for CAG size and makeup? Some background info...

1. Ark had double the avgas (120000 gal US) of the Illustrious, nearly 50% more bomb and torpedo stowage, and 50' more flight deck including the round down. Illustrious operated 50+ a/c.
2. Ark had three rectangular lifts, two of 45ft by 22ft and one of 45ft by 25ft. The hangar dims were Upper 568ft x 60ft x 16ft; Lower 425ft x 60ft x 16ft.
3. Ark has two BH III catapults: 151' long, launched 11000 lbs @ 66 kts. By war's end these were improved in the Illustrious and Implacable classes to 14000 lbs @ 66kts.

I suggest we eschew talk of modernizing Ark Royal between Nov 1941 to before VE Day, since the obvious mods of lift enlargement, and removal of the double-decker lifts and aft round down will take her out of service just as she's desperately needed.

How clapped out would Ark be by 1945? Would she be scrapped or modernized? She would be ten years old in 1948 or so, and may be easier to modernize than the Illustrious class for operating 1950s fleet air arm aircraft.

She gets sent to Singapore after Indomitable runs aground.

 

[Admiral Beez]

She gets sent to Singapore after Indomitable runs aground.

Ark Royal was still afloat when Force Z sailed for Singapore in October 1941. I'm surprised she wasn't allocated to Singapore from the onset with Indomitable going the Mediterranean. The Illustrious class certainly demonstrated the value of armoured flight decks in the Med.

 

[Kevin J]

Ark Royal was still afloat when Force Z sailed for Singapore in October 1941. I'm surprised she wasn't allocated to Singapore from the onset with Indomitable going the Mediterranean. The Illustrious class certainly demonstrated the value of armoured flight decks in the Med.

She does of course need a couple of Martlet squadrons on board.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I would have sailed Ark Royal with Prince of Wales and Repulse in October 1941 stuffed with Fulmars, Skuas and Albacores, including a deck park of three dozen fighters/TSRs for HMS Hermes plus spares for RNAS Trincomalee and RAF Sembawang. Once out of the ETO, the deck can be stuffed for the run to Ceylon, like this...

She does of course need a couple of Martlet squadrons on board.

Too soon unfortunately for Pacific Ops, at least for a year or so. Folding Martlets don't enter general FAA service until early 1943. By end 1943 I'd love to see Ark Royal operating Hellcats and Tarpons. Her lifts can take the dims, but I'm not sure about the weight.

 

[Kevin J]

I would have sailed Ark Royal with Prince of Wales and Repulse in October 1941 stuffed with Fulmars, Skuas and Albacores, including a deck park of three dozen fighters/TSRs for HMS Hermes plus spares for RNAS Trincomalee and RAF Sembawang. Once out of the ETO, the deck can be stuffed for the run to Ceylon, like this...

View attachment 568823
Too soon unfortunately for Pacific Ops, at least for a year or so. Folding Martlets don't enter general FAA service until early 1943. By end 1943 I'd love to see Ark Royal operating Hellcats and Tarpons. Her lifts can take the dims, but I'm not sure about the weight.

View attachment 568820

Folding wing Martlets entered FAA service in 1941.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Folding wing Martlets entered FAA service in 1941.

Some, yes, and I'd like to see every single Martlet that can be scrounged up allocated to Ark Royal, maybe even sailing to the US, perhaps San Diego via Panama to get more. But, we're entering fantasy worlds now. By the time the folding Martlet is in widespread service whatever carrier would already be deployed to the IPTO (Indian/Pacific Theatre of Ops).

Ark Royal would sail to Ceylon and beyond with the same aircraft types as Indomitable did (minus the Sea Hurricanes, due to lift dims), Fulmars and Swordfish/Albacores. These were the FAA's standard aircraft of late 1941. Maybe some Skuas go to, as they were just being withdrawn in 1941.

It's a curious thing, and I'm guilty of it too, that most discussion about a surviving Ark Royal quickly assumes she'd go to Singapore. We think it's obvious, it must be....Ark has the large air group, larger avgas and munition supplies, radar, homing beacon, etc. and doesn't have the armoured flight deck that is demonstrably essentially for Mediterranean ops. Ark is just perfect we say, for the IPTO. But Churchill might say screw it, send Indomitable in Nov/Dec as planned and use Ark for local ops. Or worse, with two fleet carriers available (remember, both Illustrious and Formidable are Stateside undergoing repairs), he might take both Indomitable and Ark Royal on some new Malta or North African adventure.

 

[Kevin J]

Some, yes, and I'd like to see every single Martlet that can be scrounged up allocated to Ark Royal, maybe even sailing to the US, perhaps San Diego via Panama to get more. But, we're entering fantasy worlds now. By the time the folding Martlet is in widespread service whatever carrier would already be deployed to the IPTO (Indian/Pacific Theatre of Ops).

Ark Royal would sail to Ceylon and beyond with the same aircraft types as Indomitable did (minus the Sea Hurricanes, due to lift dims), Fulmars and Swordfish/Albacores. These were the FAA's standard aircraft of late 1941. Maybe some Skuas go to, as they were just being withdrawn in 1941.

It's a curious thing, and I'm guilty of it too, that most discussion about a surviving Ark Royal quickly assumes she'd go to Singapore. We think it's obvious, it must be....Ark has the large air group, larger avgas and munition supplies, radar, homing beacon, etc. and doesn't have the armoured flight deck that is demonstrably essentially for Mediterranean ops. Ark is just perfect we say, for the IPTO. But Churchill might say screw it, send Indomitable in Nov/Dec as planned and use Ark for local ops. Or worse, with two fleet carriers available (remember, both Illustrious and Formidable are Stateside undergoing repairs), he might take both Indomitable and Ark Royal on some new Malta or North African adventure.

There's only 90 folding wing Martlets world wide in 1941. The American folding wing F4F-4 doesn't arrive until 1942, the F4F-4B Martlet IV later in that year. There are only enough for the 3 Illustrious class carriers unless we can get the 35 Greek F4F-3A's delivered to Ark Royal with folding wings, catapult spools and arrester hook attached; now that would be nice.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

The American folding wing F4F-4 doesn't arrive until 1942, the F4F-4B Martlet IV later in that year.

Folding wing Martlets entered FAA service in 1941.

 

[Kevin J]

Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

Martlet II with folding wings arrives in 1941 before American F4F-4 or British F4F-4B, Martlet IV.

 

[Shortround6]

The Martlet I (R-1820 engine, fixed wings) starts to be delivered July 27th 1940 (at the Factory) 81 on order.
The F4F-3 (two stage engine/fixed wing) starts to be delivered in Aug 1940. 185 on order.
The F4F-3A (single stage engine ) starts to be delivered about the same time, 65 plane order is completed by Dec 1941.
Martlet II (R-1830 engine single stage) starts to deliver March of 1941 first 10 fixed wint next 90 folding wing.
Marlet III (R-1830 engine single stage) starts to deliver March 18th of 1941, (ex Greek) 30 planes on order.
F4F-4 ( two stage engine, folding wing) starts to deliver Dec 1941. 1169 built. all planes after this have folding wings
Martlet IV (R-1820 engine, single stage two speed) starts to deliver July 15th 1942. 220 planes on order.
FM-1 (Eastern Aircraft 4 gun F4F-4, R-1830 two stage) Aug 1942 839 built
Marlet V, as FM-1, deliveries start Dec 1942. 311 planes on order.
FM-2 (Eastern Aircraft, R-1820 engine 4 guns ) Sept 1943, 4437 planes on order.
Wildcat VI, as FM-2, deliveries start in 1944(?) 340 planes delivered.

Aside from a few experimental and 21 long range photo/recon planes that is it.

Make dispositions/allocations accordingly

 

[Admiral Beez]

Alright, I'd say we've settled on the Martlet as the best fighter for Ark Royal. What about strike? Can she carry Avengers? Her lifts are big enough for A1 Skyraiders, but what about the weight limitations?

What do we see Ark Royal doing postwar?

 

[Kevin J]

Alright, I'd say we've settled on the Martlet as the best fighter for Ark Royal. What about strike? Can she carry Avengers? Her lifts are big enough for A1 Skyraiders, but what about the weight limitations?

What do we see Ark Royal doing postwar?

Instead of Martlet squadrons, Skyrocket squadrons. Grumman puts all its effort into the F5F not the P-50, builds 110 F5F's instead of the Martlet IV then subcontracts to Brewster, so no Buccaneers, Bermudas and fewer Corsairs, also to Fairchild Canada and CC&F, so fewer Helldivers. Late and post War, keep on operating those Skyrockets as rocketeers.