Armour Plate for Avro Lancaster

[Allan Hunter]

I'd be interested to know what those with more knowledge than I have will say. I read somewhere that 'Bomber' Harris ordered armor plate stripped from Lancasters as the war went on, so the weight or bombs could be increased. This plate would therefore be from an early model?

 

[ThomasP]

As far as I know the Lancaster carried most of its armour for the entire war. Which particular plate you are referring to?

 

[Airframes]

There were most likely exceptions, but as far as I know, the only armour plate in the Lanc was the pilot's seat back armour, with the armoured doors at the main spar location being removed or deleted.

 

[ThomasP]

My understanding is that there were armour plates protecting the navigator's and radio operator's stations as well, plus armour apron plates in the upper and rear turrets. So a full mid-war 'standard' armour fit would be the pilot's seat back armour, the armoured bulkhead behind the pilot's compartment, the armour plates behind the navigator's and radio operator's stations and the apron armour plate in the turrets.

The 'standard' armour plate outfit is indicated in red in the dwg below. The numerical indicators are #86/129/139. (I think I have it marked correctly, but not 100% sure.)

 

[Greyman]

I've posted this elsewhere but worth reposting here:

As introduced -- the Lancaster had:

Pilot
28 lb (4 mm) seat back
27 lb (9 mm) head piece

Flight Engineer
?? lb (2.5 in) armoured glass

W/T Op and Navigator position
160 lb (7 mm) *another source has 6 mm*

W/T Op seat back
13 lb (4 mm)

Mid-upper turret (FN50)
26 lb (6 mm)
38 lb (10 ga dural)

Rear turret (FN20)
45 lb (9 mm)
8 lb (6 mm)

Engine coverings
144 lb (10 swg)

Engines + ancillary
100 lb (8 mm)

Unsure, but I think the above 100 lb of armour consisted of:

- crescent-shaped plate which protects the oil tank sump​

- vertical piece of plating behind the header tank leg
- vertical plate at the side of the radiator at outboard engines​

 

[HP52]

I've posted this elsewhere but worth reposting here:

As introduced -- the Lancaster had:

Pilot
28 lb (4 mm) seat back
27 lb (9 mm) head piece

Flight Engineer
?? lb (2.5 in) armoured glass

W/T Op and Navigator position
160 lb (7 mm) *another source has 6 mm*

W/T Op seat back
13 lb (4 mm)

Mid-upper turret (FN50)
26 lb (6 mm)
38 lb (10 ga dural)

Rear turret (FN20)
45 lb (9 mm)
8 lb (6 mm)

Engine coverings
144 lb (10 swg)

Engines + ancillary
100 lb (8 mm)

Unsure, but I think the above 100 lb of armour consisted of:

- crescent-shaped plate which protects the oil tank sump
- vertical piece of plating behind the header tank leg
- vertical plate at the side of the radiator at outboard engines​

I had no idea they had so much armour. The Old Man had a lot of time for the 13mm MG 131. He had a Lanc back one night - it had a 13mm entry hole near the back of the A/C and he could sight through its complete passage through panels and bulkheads until exiting up neat the nose - except that it was 463 Sqn - I have no other details. He was always pretty dry but didn't embellish his stories and rarely told the same one twice.

 

[Allan Hunter]

I've posted this elsewhere but worth reposting here:

As introduced -- the Lancaster had:

Pilot
28 lb (4 mm) seat back
27 lb (9 mm) head piece

Flight Engineer
?? lb (2.5 in) armoured glass

W/T Op and Navigator position
160 lb (7 mm) *another source has 6 mm*

W/T Op seat back
13 lb (4 mm)

Mid-upper turret (FN50)
26 lb (6 mm)
38 lb (10 ga dural)

Rear turret (FN20)
45 lb (9 mm)
8 lb (6 mm)

Engine coverings
144 lb (10 swg)

Engines + ancillary
100 lb (8 mm)

Unsure, but I think the above 100 lb of armour consisted of:

- crescent-shaped plate which protects the oil tank sump
- vertical piece of plating behind the header tank leg
- vertical plate at the side of the radiator at outboard engines​

This is all very interesting. So some 500 pounds plus of armor was on the original Lancaster, but eventually this was reduced to just the segment behind the pilot's seat -- if I'm understanding these responses correctly? I wonder when the order was sent to the squadrons?

 

[Greyman]

I've heard a few times about armour being reduced to just the pilot's bit -- but just from things people say, nothing concrete.

If that is the case I assume it would have been a gradual process.

 

[ThomasP]

I have always suspected that any such idea to remove most or all the armour was a sentiment expressed by someone at the time, but never became an actual order. I have seen images of Lancaster turrets at the end of the war with the armour aprons still in place, as well as the pilot seat armour. There was also usually at least one of the armour plates at the navigator/radio operator station as well (you can see the armour plate markings on the bulkhead behind the radios).

Plus, I do not think it would make any sense to give such an order. 500 lbs plus or minus will not make any significant difference to 90%? (95%? 99%?) of the missions they flew.

At some point in time (end of 1942?) an amour increase kit (Mod.439) became available that weighed somewhere in the neighborhood of 1700 lbs. The 1700 lbs was in addition to most of what was already in use as the time. It was S.O.O. (Special Order Only), and I do not know how often it was ordered. That much weight of armour I can see being deemed a detriment to the mission re the mindset of some of the high command.

 

[ThomasP]

In the Apr'43 Lancaster Mk I & III descriptive manual it says "The outboard engines are protected by armour plate fitted to the bottom of the fireproof bulkhead and to the bottom of the nacelle front former."

In the Modifications list it lists Mod.397 "Introduction of armour protection for engines + 59 lbs"

The next Mod listed concerning armour is Mod.439 "Introduction of special armour plate (S.O.O.) + 1710 lbs" which is the same Mod# and description as for the Lancaster Mk II Mod.439 mentioned in my post above.

Both of the above Mods were "approved prior to January 31st, 1943".

In the same manual's TARE weight list for airframes L7527-L7532 it includes only 300 lbs of armour plating, while the TARE weight list for airframes L7533 and subsequent includes 359 lbs of armour plating.

L7527 was the first production airframe (I think) so the above information may only apply to the early production airframes through somewhere in early-1943



In the Lancaster Mk II Modification lists that I have there is one additional armour Mod. mentioned prior to Jun'45.

Mod.520 (introduced prior to Jan'43) "introduction of engine armour protection with new oil coolers" "+ 300 lbs"

As this Mod is for the Mk II (with Hercules engines) it may or may not be roughly similar to the armour mentioned by Greyman as 'Engine coverings 144 lbs' and 'Engine + ancillary 100 lbs', with the increased weight of the new oil coolers.

I have no idea if the Mk II Modifications list is anywhere near complete as far as what we are discussing is concerned.

 

[Allan Hunter]

In the Apr'43 Lancaster Mk I & III descriptive manual it says "The outboard engines are protected by armour plate fitted to the bottom of the fireproof bulkhead and to the bottom of the nacelle front former."

In the Modifications list it lists Mod.397 "Introduction of armour protection for engines + 59 lbs"

The next Mod listed concerning armour is Mod.439 "Introduction of special armour plate (S.O.O.) + 1710 lbs" which is the same Mod# and description as for the Lancaster Mk II Mod.439 mentioned in my post above.

Both of the above Mods were "approved prior to January 31st, 1943".

In the same manual's TARE weight list for airframes L7527-L7532 it includes only 300 lbs of armour plating, while the TARE weight list for airframes L7533 and subsequent includes 359 lbs of armour plating.

L7527 was the first production airframe (I think) so the above information may only apply to the early production airframes through somewhere in early-1943



In the Lancaster Mk II Modification lists that I have there is one additional armour Mod. mentioned prior to Jun'45.

Mod.520 (introduced prior to Jan'43) "introduction of engine armour protection with new oil coolers" "+ 300 lbs"

As this Mod is for the Mk II (with Hercules engines) it may or may not be roughly similar to the armour mentioned by Greyman as 'Engine coverings 144 lbs' and 'Engine + ancillary 100 lbs', with the increased weight of the new oil coolers.

I have no idea if the Mk II Modifications list is anywhere near complete as far as what we are discussing is concerned.

It's all fascinating, isn't it! It just occurred to me that the way I heard it was that 'Bomber' Harris ordered the existing armor plates to be removed from operational aircraft, so the factory and workshop specs would have included the armor plate for the aircraft as assembled. Harris then asked for it to be taken out! I wish I could find the reference, though!

 

[Allan Hunter]

I've just found some interesting things about this: https://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/lancaster-crews.8774/#google_vignette

This is a website that seems to be reliable, and the information is from 'The Lancaster at War' (Garnett and Goulding) volume 1. I shall have to find a copy. It states that the Lancaster had only one piece of Armor plate late in the war, a piece 3/8 thick behind the pilot, covering head and neck down to his seat. No mention seems to be made of armor on the engines.

 

[SaparotRob]

It's all fascinating, isn't it! It just occurred to me that the way I heard it was that 'Bomber' Harris ordered the existing armor plates to be removed from operational aircraft, so the factory and workshop specs would have included the armor plate for the aircraft as assembled. Harris then asked for it to be taken out! I wish I could find the reference, though!

Don't worry about it. Your post will be misquoted by a lurker and posted on other forums. Because he heard something too. It will then become primary source material for a Dark Skies or Caliban Rising video.

 

[pb43]

I'd be interested to know what those with more knowledge than I have will say. I read somewhere that 'Bomber' Harris ordered armor plate stripped from Lancasters as the war went on, so the weight or bombs could be increased. This plate would therefore be from an early model?

Throughout the war the damage caused to returning aircraft was used to determine where armour would best be placed. By plotting bullet strikes on surviving aircraft they determined that those areas did NOT require armour. Anywhere that showed relatively few strikes in a known vulnerable area indicated where to place the armour.

 

[Allan Hunter]

I've heard a few times about armour being reduced to just the pilot's bit -- but just from things people say, nothing concrete.

If that is the case I assume it would have been a gradual process.

The armor plate was indeed removed from the Lancasters. J. Douglas Harvey, in his memoir "Boys, Bombs and Brussel Sprouts" (McClelland and Stewart Publishers, Toronto, 1981) records that for his mission to Leipzig on Feb. 19th 1944 the armor was removed prior to the raid. The distance involved, he writes, was the main factor.

"This made for maximum gas loads and, consequently, fewer bombs, which [Sir Arthur] Harris and his planners didn't like. Orders were issued to remove the armor plating and to reduce the amount of ammunition carried in order to save weight and thus increase the bombload. Even the rest bed was ordered removed. The aircrew all bitched and protested but to no avail." (page 154).

Since Harvey was the pilot and aircraft captain at the time I think it's fair to say he knows what happened. Harvey was a Sergeant Pilot in the RCAF, later Commissioned. He retired as a Wing Commander in 1963.

 

[Maxrobot1]

One can only wonder if the aircrew snuck some armor onto their own plane to supplement existing armor.

 

[pb43]

The armor plate was indeed removed from the Lancasters. J. Douglas Harvey, in his memoir "Boys, Bombs and Brussel Sprouts" (McClelland and Stewart Publishers, Toronto, 1981) records that for his mission to Leipzig on Feb. 19th 1944 the armor was removed prior to the raid. The distance involved, he writes, was the main factor.

"This made for maximum gas loads and, consequently, fewer bombs, which [Sir Arthur] Harris and his planners didn't like. Orders were issued to remove the armor plating and to reduce the amount of ammunition carried in order to save weight and thus increase the bombload. Even the rest bed was ordered removed. The aircrew all bitched and protested but to no avail." (page 154).

Since Harvey was the pilot and aircraft captain at the time I think it's fair to say he knows what happened. Harvey was a Sergeant Pilot in the RCAF, later Commissioned. He retired as a Wing Commander in 1963.

"Gas"? Were they carrying chemical weapons?

 

[fubar57]

Aviation fuel