B-17's at Pearl Harbor December 1941
- Thread starter Popeye53
- Start date
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SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I never knew one of them landed on a golf course. Groundskeeper must have been annoyed.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Understandble, it was one of the few par-7 holes in the world at the time.
It could have been worse:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXkN3nJyWEA
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
Not to mention the foursome playing that fairway!
DBII
Senior Master Sergeant
San Antonio Rose playing through on the back nine.
Mike Wenger
Airman
- 30
- Feb 4, 2023
The three known serial numbers of the four aborts are as follows, although there is some uncertainty regarding Hastings' aircraft...
B-17E, 41-2431 - Ezzard
B-17E, 41-????? - Potter (the A.C. Serial No. is not on the field order)
B-17C, 40-2070? - Hastings
B-17C, 40-2059 - Zubko
Note that, per 38th Reconnaissance Squadron Special Orders No. 1, the unit had only two B-17Es... Landon and Barthelmess. In the next few days, I will try to scan the field/special orders that contain the crew rosters, and then load them up to this thread.
Incidentally, to the best of my knowledge I believe that--as of 7 December 1941--the aircraft bore no nicknames and/or nose art. I suppose that I could be in error there, but it would certainly be nice to see some evidence to the contrary. I'm always open to that.
The golf course incident and the story of Frank Bostrom intrigued me for many years. In my conversations with the family, his grandson was quite insistent regarding the veracity of the story, although I had my doubts. What helped me to understand the account of the golf course was an Army Air Force aerial photograph of the emergency landing field at Kahuku from 1937. The "field" was simply a large open-space (rolled areas for runways, apparently), with what is very obviously a golf course out to the west side.
I have attached that image to illustrate the lay of the land. My memories of the golf course on which I plodded behind my Dad so many years ago ("Willow Springs," Wilson, NC), always contaminated my "theater of the mind," with visions of narrow, tree-lined fairways, etc. Clearly, the Hawaiian golf course (which is still there) built for the Kahuku Sugar Mill bigwigs was nothing like that at all.
In all probability, Bostrom simply landed in the open area to the east, out closer to the water. I am so glad that I stumbled upon this photograph as it went a long way toward explaining--to my relief--that the golf course story was NOT a myth.
By way of shameless self-promotion, the "full" story of the B-17/B-24 flights into Hickam and their background is in a book that I wrote (with co-authors)... They're Killing My Boys: The History of Hickam Field and the Attacks of 7 December 1941.
Mike Wenger
B-17E, 41-2431 - Ezzard
B-17E, 41-????? - Potter (the A.C. Serial No. is not on the field order)
B-17C, 40-2070? - Hastings
B-17C, 40-2059 - Zubko
Note that, per 38th Reconnaissance Squadron Special Orders No. 1, the unit had only two B-17Es... Landon and Barthelmess. In the next few days, I will try to scan the field/special orders that contain the crew rosters, and then load them up to this thread.
Incidentally, to the best of my knowledge I believe that--as of 7 December 1941--the aircraft bore no nicknames and/or nose art. I suppose that I could be in error there, but it would certainly be nice to see some evidence to the contrary. I'm always open to that.
The golf course incident and the story of Frank Bostrom intrigued me for many years. In my conversations with the family, his grandson was quite insistent regarding the veracity of the story, although I had my doubts. What helped me to understand the account of the golf course was an Army Air Force aerial photograph of the emergency landing field at Kahuku from 1937. The "field" was simply a large open-space (rolled areas for runways, apparently), with what is very obviously a golf course out to the west side.
I have attached that image to illustrate the lay of the land. My memories of the golf course on which I plodded behind my Dad so many years ago ("Willow Springs," Wilson, NC), always contaminated my "theater of the mind," with visions of narrow, tree-lined fairways, etc. Clearly, the Hawaiian golf course (which is still there) built for the Kahuku Sugar Mill bigwigs was nothing like that at all.
In all probability, Bostrom simply landed in the open area to the east, out closer to the water. I am so glad that I stumbled upon this photograph as it went a long way toward explaining--to my relief--that the golf course story was NOT a myth.
By way of shameless self-promotion, the "full" story of the B-17/B-24 flights into Hickam and their background is in a book that I wrote (with co-authors)... They're Killing My Boys: The History of Hickam Field and the Attacks of 7 December 1941.
Mike Wenger
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,667
- May 13, 2018
In your research into crews for these airplanes, perhaps you could shed some light into information from another thread on the forum which indicated some planes had an additional crewmember whose rank was "Cadet" or "Air cadet". I have been curious why a few cadets would be on their way to the Philippines.
Mike Wenger
Airman
- 30
- Feb 4, 2023
This is an interesting issue.
I think the answer is that there was a critical shortage of officers in the Army Air Force, and, that Aviation Cadets were being shunted into navigator/bombardier-training in great numbers. Insofar as I can remember without digging in the files again, Aviation Cadets (at least the ones assigned to the B-17 flight to Hickam) were all bombardiers and navigators. There might be an exception or two, but I will dig out the files again.
According to their microfilmed flight records in St. Louis, Most (if not all) of these somewhat wet-behind-the-ears cadets had washed out of pilot training.
There is a very interesting anecdote that Col. (then-1st Lt.) Robert Thacker shared with me in a phone call about 15 years ago. In the prewar days, aviation cadets wore blue uniforms and stuck out like proverbial sore thumbs. At some point during his crew's B-17 training, one of these cadets reported to Thacker at the field near Salt Lake City. Thacker asked, "What are you doing here?" The cadet replied, "I am your new navigator." All Thacker could think was, "Uh-oh." As it turned out, however, this cadet--Albert J. Hobday--was one of the finest navigators that Thacker ever had.
Just went into the files again. Among the 23 Aviation Cadets assigned to the 16 crews, 14 were navigators and 9 were bombardiers, assuming my math is correct. Most, if not all of these cadets at Hickam received promotions to 2nd lieutenant very soon after the attack.
I think the answer is that there was a critical shortage of officers in the Army Air Force, and, that Aviation Cadets were being shunted into navigator/bombardier-training in great numbers. Insofar as I can remember without digging in the files again, Aviation Cadets (at least the ones assigned to the B-17 flight to Hickam) were all bombardiers and navigators. There might be an exception or two, but I will dig out the files again.
According to their microfilmed flight records in St. Louis, Most (if not all) of these somewhat wet-behind-the-ears cadets had washed out of pilot training.
There is a very interesting anecdote that Col. (then-1st Lt.) Robert Thacker shared with me in a phone call about 15 years ago. In the prewar days, aviation cadets wore blue uniforms and stuck out like proverbial sore thumbs. At some point during his crew's B-17 training, one of these cadets reported to Thacker at the field near Salt Lake City. Thacker asked, "What are you doing here?" The cadet replied, "I am your new navigator." All Thacker could think was, "Uh-oh." As it turned out, however, this cadet--Albert J. Hobday--was one of the finest navigators that Thacker ever had.
Just went into the files again. Among the 23 Aviation Cadets assigned to the 16 crews, 14 were navigators and 9 were bombardiers, assuming my math is correct. Most, if not all of these cadets at Hickam received promotions to 2nd lieutenant very soon after the attack.
Mike Wenger
Airman
- 30
- Feb 4, 2023
Just to be clear. At first, the cadets were put all together in one pilot-training basket. Then, at some critical point in their training, they either continued as pilot trainees, or washed out and entered navigator/bombardier training.
I think I saw in a record somewhere--maybe in the 58th Bombardment Squadron at Hickam Field--a Pfc. flying as a bombardier during a A-20A search mission from 7 December. I'll do some roster work on this. My curiosity is up on this now. I'll check.
I think I saw in a record somewhere--maybe in the 58th Bombardment Squadron at Hickam Field--a Pfc. flying as a bombardier during a A-20A search mission from 7 December. I'll do some roster work on this. My curiosity is up on this now. I'll check.
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
There were a lot of enlisted bombardiers in the early days. 22nd BG and 3rd BG went to war with them.
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,667
- May 13, 2018
A B&W movie with Pat O'Brian (I think) was about trying to get the USAAC to recognise bombardiers as officers. Movie may have been "Bombardier".
- Thread starter
- #12
Thanks!!! Looks like I have another book to add to my "wish list..."
- Thread starter
- #13
Mike,
Most of the sources I've seen say that the 38th Recon Squadron had 4 B-17C & 4 B-17E. I've pulled up the Aircraft History Cards for 40-2059 & 2070 (see attached) and both aircraft are shown as being assigned to "Copper" in December 1941. I've never been able find a clear definition of what "Copper" was, but based on the context I've assumed it was a program/project that coordinated the movement of aircraft to the Far East. 40-2070 is listed as being at Albuquerque on 5 Dec 41, so it could easily have made the move to Hamilton with the squadron in preparation for the flight to the Philippines. 40-2070 is listed as being at Langley on 14 Nov 41, and not moving to Albuquerque until January 42. It's a shame the AHCs only provide the physical location, and don't track the assignment of aircraft to specific units.
Mike Wenger
Airman
- 30
- Feb 4, 2023
Popeye, re: 40-2059 & 40-2070
40-2059 for Zubko is inked onto the SO1, 38thRS, 4Dec41.
40-2070 for Hastings is inked onto the same order.
I wrote something onto the order that 2070 shows up in
Ernest L. Reid's flight logs for Dec41, which makes it
possible to have been present in the roster. Of course,
I can't find that letter from him. Keep after me.
Like you, I have no idea what "Copper" is.
I have always had great difficulty deciphering these dates on the history cards.
Any advice on that score would be appreciated.
40-2059 for Zubko is inked onto the SO1, 38thRS, 4Dec41.
40-2070 for Hastings is inked onto the same order.
I wrote something onto the order that 2070 shows up in
Ernest L. Reid's flight logs for Dec41, which makes it
possible to have been present in the roster. Of course,
I can't find that letter from him. Keep after me.
Like you, I have no idea what "Copper" is.
I have always had great difficulty deciphering these dates on the history cards.
Any advice on that score would be appreciated.
- Thread starter
- #15
Amen to that! It is very much like reading tea leaves... I'm interested in the location of aircraft on 7 Dec 41.
The Date section shows the Fiscal Year (started on 1 Jul at that time), and Calendar Month. So a F.Y. of "2" and a C. MO. of "11 or 12" gets me in the ballpark. From there the Transferred and Remarks sections (if completed) can provide additional information (the actual date of transfer, accidents, status changes, unit assignment, etc.) and the This Month column of the Flying Time section can provide an indication if the aircraft was operational, or in storage/under repair, etc.) It would have been great if the To column in the Transferred Section reflected the Unit Assignment instead of essentially repeating the Location column, but beggars can be choosers... During COVID I was fortunate to be able to get PDF copies of many of the AHC reels for the preWar period from the Air Force Historical Research Agency, so I have plenty of data to sort through.
Mike Wenger
Airman
- 30
- Feb 4, 2023
Greg & Special Ed...
I just dredged up the crew for that A-20A search north of O'ahu.
Pilot - Capt. Perry S. Cole (O-324671 ) - 58th Bomb Sq.
Bomb. - TSgt. James F. O'Shea (6535829) - 23rd Bomb Sq. His MOS = 174, Radio Electrician
RG - Pfc. Rodney W. House (6934129) - 58th Bomb Sq. His MOS = 11, Armorer
This was a two-plane mission that searched the area from 1255-1555. The second aircraft was commanded by 1st Lt. John J. VerDerZee - no data on the crew.
Mike W.
I just dredged up the crew for that A-20A search north of O'ahu.
Pilot - Capt. Perry S. Cole (O-324671 ) - 58th Bomb Sq.
Bomb. - TSgt. James F. O'Shea (6535829) - 23rd Bomb Sq. His MOS = 174, Radio Electrician
RG - Pfc. Rodney W. House (6934129) - 58th Bomb Sq. His MOS = 11, Armorer
This was a two-plane mission that searched the area from 1255-1555. The second aircraft was commanded by 1st Lt. John J. VerDerZee - no data on the crew.
Mike W.
Mike Wenger
Airman
- 30
- Feb 4, 2023
Popeye,
Earlier today, I sent a message to the board folks asking how to get you a private message. I have the parking schematic for Hickam that I'll send to you since you seemed to be interested in that. Basically, we compiled it from a single Japanese strike photo. The pilot was just at the right spot, at just the right time. One could even tell the B-17s and B-18s apart... the former looked like knitting needles and the latter like pancake spatulas. The schematic is in our Hickam book, BTW, along with gobs of other neat stuff.
The "similar" chart in the Pearl Harbor Hearing volume is a piece of pure phantasm, but here it is below, just for giggles.
Best...
Mike W.
Earlier today, I sent a message to the board folks asking how to get you a private message. I have the parking schematic for Hickam that I'll send to you since you seemed to be interested in that. Basically, we compiled it from a single Japanese strike photo. The pilot was just at the right spot, at just the right time. One could even tell the B-17s and B-18s apart... the former looked like knitting needles and the latter like pancake spatulas. The schematic is in our Hickam book, BTW, along with gobs of other neat stuff.
The "similar" chart in the Pearl Harbor Hearing volume is a piece of pure phantasm, but here it is below, just for giggles.
Best...
Mike W.
Mike Wenger
Airman
- 30
- Feb 4, 2023
Popeye...
Finally found the photocopy in my files of Ernest Reid's logbook entry for 7Dec41, which verifies which aircraft he flew from Hamilton to Hickam... 40-2070.
This calls into question how the heck one can interpret dates on the history cards. Maybe someone such as Dana Bell might be able to help with this. The mystery continues.
Mike Wenger
Finally found the photocopy in my files of Ernest Reid's logbook entry for 7Dec41, which verifies which aircraft he flew from Hamilton to Hickam... 40-2070.
This calls into question how the heck one can interpret dates on the history cards. Maybe someone such as Dana Bell might be able to help with this. The mystery continues.
Mike Wenger
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
Does the term "pencil whipping" mean anything to you? I was in the army long enough to know that administrative records don't necessarily reflect what actually happened.
Mike Wenger
Airman
- 30
- Feb 4, 2023
Greg, I would agree totally. That, however, is the sad state of affairs when using fragmentary/incomplete sets of records.
Ideally, I should have been able to have contacted the families of the other officers and enlisted crews, and sweet-talk them into climbing into their attics to pull Grandpa's flight logs. The passage of seventy to eighty years puts historians of today in the same relative position as someone in 1935 or 1940 trying to pry letters from the families of deceased Civil War veterans. Time and resources are terribly limiting factors, as well as what is required to even locate descendants two generations removed from the veteran in question. Additionally, there is the issue that most descendants do not care about Grandpa's exploits and sacrifices, much less about their papers.
I cannot relate how frantic I have been, getting sandwiched (or more aptly, being placed into a vise) between the publisher's deadline, and spending the required time to run down people all over hell's half-acre who seem to have done everything in their power to make it impossible to contact them.
But, that is the life of publishing military history... one I am fortunate to have pursued, though not without pitfalls.
Mike Wenger
Raleigh, NC
Ideally, I should have been able to have contacted the families of the other officers and enlisted crews, and sweet-talk them into climbing into their attics to pull Grandpa's flight logs. The passage of seventy to eighty years puts historians of today in the same relative position as someone in 1935 or 1940 trying to pry letters from the families of deceased Civil War veterans. Time and resources are terribly limiting factors, as well as what is required to even locate descendants two generations removed from the veteran in question. Additionally, there is the issue that most descendants do not care about Grandpa's exploits and sacrifices, much less about their papers.
I cannot relate how frantic I have been, getting sandwiched (or more aptly, being placed into a vise) between the publisher's deadline, and spending the required time to run down people all over hell's half-acre who seem to have done everything in their power to make it impossible to contact them.
But, that is the life of publishing military history... one I am fortunate to have pursued, though not without pitfalls.
Mike Wenger
Raleigh, NC
