B-25 vs. Ju-88
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syscom3
Pacific Historian
I think the Ranger was ferrying the P40's to N Africa as part of OPeration Torch. They were capable of taking off from the carrier to captured airfields, but were never intended to land back on board.
Exactly, I posted something about them here a while back. I can not remember which thread though.
If I may make a few comments on the previous posts in this thread, your patience would be appreciated.
The B25 could theoretically be made into a carrier based bomber/anti shipping aircraft. This would have involved extensive modification to the airframe.
Syscom's comments that it is a rugged aircraft that can take the abuses of novice pilots have been taken into consideration as a valid point, however one of the factors that has been overlooked is that carrier landing using arrestor hooks subjects the aircraft to far higher deceleration forces than a novice pilots heavy landing. The plane needs to have the airframe and landing gear strengthened in order that it does not break apart.
The B25 would also need to be modified with regard to salt water corrosion.
Given that the B25 could be converted to carrier based, it must be taken into account that the majority of 1942 aircraft carriers would not have been able to support such a big aircraft. The Doolittle raid aircraft where lashed to the deck already fueled and armed and had no opportunity for additional maintanence.
The Doolittle raid was primarily designed as a propaganda mission in response to Pearl Harbour and had little military value. Please note Doolittle Raid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia as a nice article.
If the raid was carried out as originally thought, I would imagine that the B25's would have either landed on deck and then jettisoned to the sea or they would have ditched close to the carrier.
If the B25 was used as a carrrier based aircraft there would have needed to have been a major re-think of the USN tactical and strategic policy with regard to big carriers.
Also, with regard to the Ju88 never being made into a carrier based aircraft, it should be remembered that Germany did not complete their aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin, I am sure that if they had, the Ju88 would have been considered.
We are getting into the realm of "what if, maybe, and should have been"
The B25 could theoretically be made into a carrier based bomber/anti shipping aircraft. This would have involved extensive modification to the airframe.
Syscom's comments that it is a rugged aircraft that can take the abuses of novice pilots have been taken into consideration as a valid point, however one of the factors that has been overlooked is that carrier landing using arrestor hooks subjects the aircraft to far higher deceleration forces than a novice pilots heavy landing. The plane needs to have the airframe and landing gear strengthened in order that it does not break apart.
The B25 would also need to be modified with regard to salt water corrosion.
Given that the B25 could be converted to carrier based, it must be taken into account that the majority of 1942 aircraft carriers would not have been able to support such a big aircraft. The Doolittle raid aircraft where lashed to the deck already fueled and armed and had no opportunity for additional maintanence.
The Doolittle raid was primarily designed as a propaganda mission in response to Pearl Harbour and had little military value. Please note Doolittle Raid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia as a nice article.
If the raid was carried out as originally thought, I would imagine that the B25's would have either landed on deck and then jettisoned to the sea or they would have ditched close to the carrier.
If the B25 was used as a carrrier based aircraft there would have needed to have been a major re-think of the USN tactical and strategic policy with regard to big carriers.
Also, with regard to the Ju88 never being made into a carrier based aircraft, it should be remembered that Germany did not complete their aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin, I am sure that if they had, the Ju88 would have been considered.
We are getting into the realm of "what if, maybe, and should have been"
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
Did bombers truly ever dogfight in WWII in an actual situation? The best instance I can imagine is a Bounce where one bomber comes up behind or out of the sun and gets the enemy bomber unawares.
If they did develop tactics, would it have looked something like 2 Naval warships going along side each and blasting away till one sinks?
Or better yet, try and slice the other plane with your wingtips and end up in a unflyable piece of junk yourself?
(Sorry, this thread is long.....Didn't see anything about actual combat.....)
If they did develop tactics, would it have looked something like 2 Naval warships going along side each and blasting away till one sinks?
Or better yet, try and slice the other plane with your wingtips and end up in a unflyable piece of junk yourself?
(Sorry, this thread is long.....Didn't see anything about actual combat.....)
mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
There were several brutal mfights between Liberators/Sunderlands etc and FW 200s that I've heard of out in the Bay of Biscay but that's all I know of
there was one instance of a b-17 and japanese flying boat (forget the designation) that went head to head. that's a bunch like navy boats, each one is bristling with guns. i stole this pic from someone else's post on the forum.
sorry for getting off topic... thought it would be cool though.
sorry for getting off topic... thought it would be cool though.
Attachments
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
Cool drawing of that event.
In one computer game I tried going again'st a betty in a B-25. He was faster and more manuverable than me, but I found I could get him in the end.
In one computer game I tried going again'st a betty in a B-25. He was faster and more manuverable than me, but I found I could get him in the end.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I think B-25s and A-20s did some air-to-air in the PTO.
daishi12 said:
Already been said by many others.
daishi12 said:
Same as above
daishi12 said:
Same
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
hurricanes and spitfires were transported like this for the RAF i know that much.........
I am sure there were quite a few different aircraft that were ferried like that. I know P-40s, Hurricanes, Spitfires, P-47s were and I am sure that others were as well.
The point I tried to make to Syscom was that theoretically the B25 could have been made into a carrier based aircraft with extensive modification. This was not done on a production basis due to the fact that American aircraft carriers of the time were simply too small.
The Doolittle raid had very little military impact, but was a hugely successfull propaganda message. I am sure that I have seen a quote from a senior USN captain that although the B25 could be launched relatively easily, it would have been extremely difficult to land on a carrier. This was the reason the Doolittle raiders diverted to Russia and China.
I am sure that if the Graf Zeppellin had entered service there would have thought into putting a couple of suitably modified Ju88's onboard.
My vote would be for the Ju88 because even though the B25 performed better in some areas, the Ju88 was an incredibly versatile aircraft which was modified extensively under combat conditions from the start of WW2 to the end of hostilities.
Syscom's comment that the B25 could be modified to perform every possible thing that was asked of it seems to forget that the factories that produced the B25 where never at risk of continued bombing and did not, on the whole, suffer from poor quality materials or part shortages that front line nations suffered.
On a personal note, the Ju88 was a much nicer looking aircraft than the B25 (profile that looked like a barn door), but the Mosquito was the real looker
The Doolittle raid had very little military impact, but was a hugely successfull propaganda message. I am sure that I have seen a quote from a senior USN captain that although the B25 could be launched relatively easily, it would have been extremely difficult to land on a carrier. This was the reason the Doolittle raiders diverted to Russia and China.
I am sure that if the Graf Zeppellin had entered service there would have thought into putting a couple of suitably modified Ju88's onboard.
My vote would be for the Ju88 because even though the B25 performed better in some areas, the Ju88 was an incredibly versatile aircraft which was modified extensively under combat conditions from the start of WW2 to the end of hostilities.
Syscom's comment that the B25 could be modified to perform every possible thing that was asked of it seems to forget that the factories that produced the B25 where never at risk of continued bombing and did not, on the whole, suffer from poor quality materials or part shortages that front line nations suffered.
On a personal note, the Ju88 was a much nicer looking aircraft than the B25 (profile that looked like a barn door), but the Mosquito was the real looker
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
daishi12 said:
I think this has been spread mostly by Naval air power supporters. I have seen information that indicate that the Japanese were significantly impacted by the attack and it helped sway the Japanese from Westward emphasis (India, Madagascar) and concentrate on protecting their sea approaches, prioritizing an attack on Midway. In other words, it caused them to reassess and modify their strategic objectives. This implies a significant impact.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
daishi12 said:
I don't fully understand this comment. What does poor quality and shortages have to do with modifying the B-25. With a better range/load capability of the B-25, and similar speed, it obviously could be a adapted to any role the Ju-88 could be adapted, well, maybe not dive bombing. Whether it would be as successful as the Ju-88 in each role is subjective. We know the Ju-88 was quite manueverable. We don't know much about the B-25 as a comparison. The reason the B-25 was not configured in as many roles as the Ju-88 was that there was no need to.
On a personal note, the Ju88 was a much nicer looking aircraft than the B25 (profile that looked like a barn door), but the Mosquito was the real looker
Neither plane would make the best looking list. The mosquitohawk nose of the Ju-88 is certainly not something a mother would be proud of. Your comment on the Mosquito is right on the money. It made my list of best looking aircraft.
With regard to Dav's comment, I would like to clarify a little. The Doolittle raid was designed to show the American public that America could and would mount a strike against the Japanese homelands in retaliation to Pearl Harbour. The raid consisted of 16 B25's each carrying 3x500lb HE and 1x500lb incendiary. There were at least 5 towns targeted.
The expectations of the raid were I believe to "fly the flag" as opposed to delivering either useful tatical or strategic damage. The fact that there was a large impact on Japanese strategic thinking was a bonus. I would however contend that there were imminent plans to invade India or Madagascar, given the fact that there was nearly full commitment to Burma, China and the Phillippines.
I brought up the material shortages and quality statement in response to Syscom's statement that because the engineers could modify the B25 at will they would do so. The German engineers where working under much greater constraints than their American counterparts. The Germans had to work with what they had. If the Germans had the same industrial base as the USA I believe there would have been even greater improvements to the Ju88.
I'm glad you agree that the Mosquito was much better looking than either B25 or Ju88
The expectations of the raid were I believe to "fly the flag" as opposed to delivering either useful tatical or strategic damage. The fact that there was a large impact on Japanese strategic thinking was a bonus. I would however contend that there were imminent plans to invade India or Madagascar, given the fact that there was nearly full commitment to Burma, China and the Phillippines.
I brought up the material shortages and quality statement in response to Syscom's statement that because the engineers could modify the B25 at will they would do so. The German engineers where working under much greater constraints than their American counterparts. The Germans had to work with what they had. If the Germans had the same industrial base as the USA I believe there would have been even greater improvements to the Ju88.
I'm glad you agree that the Mosquito was much better looking than either B25 or Ju88
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
daishi12 said:
As it was once said, for the US, Pearl Harbor was like getting hit with a sledge hammer, for the Japanese, the Doolittle Raid was like having a long needle driven into their eye.
