daishi12 said:
Yes I understood that and agree with you. I was just making a point that it has been tried over and over by every one of us and it would not sink in to him.
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daishi12 said:The point I tried to make to Syscom was that theoretically the B25 could have been made into a carrier based aircraft with extensive modification. This was not done on a production basis due to the fact that American aircraft carriers of the time were simply too small.
The Doolittle raid had very little military impact, but was a hugely successfull propaganda message. I am sure that I have seen a quote from a senior USN captain that although the B25 could be launched relatively easily, it would have been extremely difficult to land on a carrier. This was the reason the Doolittle raiders diverted to Russia and China.
I am sure that if the Graf Zeppellin had entered service there would have thought into putting a couple of suitably modified Ju88's onboard.
My vote would be for the Ju88 because even though the B25 performed better in some areas, the Ju88 was an incredibly versatile aircraft which was modified extensively under combat conditions from the start of WW2 to the end of hostilities.
Syscom's comment that the B25 could be modified to perform every possible thing that was asked of it seems to forget that the factories that produced the B25 where never at risk of continued bombing and did not, on the whole, suffer from poor quality materials or part shortages that front line nations suffered.
On a personal note, the Ju88 was a much nicer looking aircraft than the B25 (profile that looked like a barn door), but the Mosquito was the real looker
daishi12 said:The point I tried to make to Syscom was that theoretically the B25 could have been made into a carrier based aircraft with extensive modification. This was not done on a production basis due to the fact that American aircraft carriers of the time were simply too small.
The Doolittle raid had very little military impact, but was a hugely successfull propaganda message. I am sure that I have seen a quote from a senior USN captain that although the B25 could be launched relatively easily, it would have been extremely difficult to land on a carrier. This was the reason the Doolittle raiders diverted to Russia and China.
I am sure that if the Graf Zeppellin had entered service there would have thought into putting a couple of suitably modified Ju88's onboard...
Syscom's comment that the B25 could be modified to perform every possible thing that was asked of it seems to forget that the factories that produced the B25 where never at risk of continued bombing and did not, on the whole, suffer from poor quality materials or part shortages that front line nations suffered.
syscom3 said:WE dont know how extensive the modifications would have been. And yes, the carriers were to small.
syscom3 said:Flyboyj posted some material that indicated tht there was a plan to land them back aboard, but it was scuttled due to the difficulties in teaching the pilots to land them. Plus the USN was not about to expose two carriers close to Japan for several hours.
syscom3 said:Look at the performance figures of the -88. Could it carry a 2000 - 3000 lb payload on a takeoff run of 300 feet?
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:Its a hell of lot more modifications than you think it is. Every person here with experience working on planes has told you this and you dont care to listen.
Just like your argument up there. Can you prove that it could not without modifications? Nope. I am sure with modifications it could be done.
syscom3 said:Noone here has owned up to being a bona fide B25 mechanic, or have the blueprints of the plane PLUS being a structural engineer.
The question is what modifications were necessary, if they were minor, or indeed extensive enough to warrent it being a whole different airframe.
Glider said:Back to Basics i.e. B25 vs Ju88.
Comparing the aircraft as far as I understand it.
The Ju88 had
Lower wing loading 52.5lb/ft to 54.9
Faster acceleration stall to 200mph 32 seconds to 36.5 seconds
Lower stall speed 90mph to 95 (Full Flaps)
Better Climb
and if all else failed, had been tested with RATO packs
So to awnser the question, could it take off from an Aircraft Carrier YES would seem to be the reply.
Tail Dragger is irrelevent seen as most carrier planes were tail draggers. The Ju88 cockpit is well forward and would appear to give an excellent view. Better in many ways than a B25.
Re Modifications
My guess would be that the Ju88 would need less modification as it was stressed for divebombing. It would still need mods but less than a non stressed B25.
Which Brings us back to Syscoms fav observation. Its hardly a suprise that non of us are trained in B25's, (but I did do a little on a non flying Swordfish if that counts, well I did help take a torpedo off one ).
Glider said:......
Re Modifications
My guess would be that the Ju88 would need less modification as it was stressed for divebombing. It would still need mods but less than a non stressed B25.
Glider said:Back to Basics i.e. B25 vs Ju88.
Comparing the aircraft as far as I understand it.
The Ju88 had
Lower wing loading 52.5lb/ft to 54.9
Faster acceleration stall to 200mph 32 seconds to 36.5 seconds
Lower stall speed 90mph to 95 (Full Flaps)
Better Climb
and if all else failed, had been tested with RATO packs.
So to awnser the question, could it take off from an Aircraft Carrier YES would seem to be the reply.
Which Brings us back to Syscoms fav observation. Its hardly a suprise that non of us are trained in B25's, (but I did do a little on a non flying Swordfish if that counts, well I did help take a torpedo off one ).
syscom3 said:Noone here has owned up to being a bona fide B25 mechanic, or have the blueprints of the plane PLUS being a structural engineer.
syscom3 said:Agree. The question is what modifications were necessary, if they were minor, or indeed extensive enough to warrent it being a whole different airframe.
syscom3 said:The only difference between the two for carrier landings is the -88 was a tail dragger and it might be far more unsafe for it to be landing with the pilot having restricted forward vision.
davparlr said:In spite of what I said above, I believe you are correct here. The wind over the deck of the carrier was probably 50+kts. These planes did not have to accelerate very much. Now, would a Ju-88A-4 be able to fly the specified 2000 miles with 2000 lbs of bombs. I'm not sure about that. The B-25 would certainly have more margin for success.
davparlr said:This is how I imagine it went down.
"How can we strike at Japan?" was the Presidents question.
Carrier planes? No, not enough range to keep our most valuable asset in the Pacific, the carrier, safe.
Can longer range planes be launched from a carrier? Maybe, but recovering them would be very difficult and dangerous for the carrier. Modifications would be difficult.
Can something else be done? Hey! How about launching a bomber from a carrier and land it in China. Can that be done? Let's investigate! The rest is history.
Erich said:it's interesting how small of a craft it really is