Morning guys, thought a few of you might be interested in this. I have been researching B-25's for a while now and have been finding a few with the 20mm cannon but this was the first I found both a documented statement in a combat log of the 90th bomb squadron and a picture. Picture is from B-25 Mitchell at war by Jerry Scutts.
B-25D Junior Bat 41-29697
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Cool.
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Thanks Wayne!
Old Wizard
2nd Lieutenant
Nice shot!
Kai Stemm
Airman 1st Class
Cool
Very interesting. I wonder if they had any reliability issues with the guns.
By the way, this aircraft is missing the nose wheel well door spring loaded strut clearance flap/door*. Most gun nose B-25s in the Pacific, including essentially all of the 345th BG aircraft, had them removed leaving an external opening in the nose wheel well when the gear was retracted. I've talked to a ton of people (B-25 owners, operators and restorers) and no one had even noticed the doors had ever been removed by anyone in the first place let alone know why. I'm very curious about it. For example, there are pictures of the Air Apache's Tondelayo (WW2) with the door removed then pictures of it later after it was retired from combat and renamed Chow Hound that show the flap/door was reinstalled. It must be related to the guns in the nose.
*It allows the door to close with the gear down.
By the way, this aircraft is missing the nose wheel well door spring loaded strut clearance flap/door*. Most gun nose B-25s in the Pacific, including essentially all of the 345th BG aircraft, had them removed leaving an external opening in the nose wheel well when the gear was retracted. I've talked to a ton of people (B-25 owners, operators and restorers) and no one had even noticed the doors had ever been removed by anyone in the first place let alone know why. I'm very curious about it. For example, there are pictures of the Air Apache's Tondelayo (WW2) with the door removed then pictures of it later after it was retired from combat and renamed Chow Hound that show the flap/door was reinstalled. It must be related to the guns in the nose.
*It allows the door to close with the gear down.
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- #9
Very interesting Chuter, I will have to look this weekend at some other pictures of B-25's with the cannon mounted that I have found so far. I thought I remember some where reading about why they where removed it but don't remember where or why. If I find it again I will post it for you.
In fact this "flap" has been removed even earlier on "Mitchells" in the Pacific Theatre when Pappy Gunn started modifying B-25 bombers into strafers a.k.a. "commerce destroyers". "Pappy's Folly" below was the prototype. IMHO this change has less to do with the 20mm cannon, but more with the 4-gun battery. Or maybe there's no connection at all?
There is a nice photo article about "Mortimer" B-25C s/n 41-12443. One can see the transformation from a stock a/c to a strafer. At the end the "flap"-cover in question is missing.
"Mortimer Jr." shows the same modification (same with the rest of the 13-th AS. "Mitchells").
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- #11
great pics man...
Yes, I remember this too. I just can't recall were the excessive vibrations caused by the 4-guns pack or by the external blister guns. Anyway the 4 nose guns in the Pappy Gunn's modification were attached to a vertical steel tube (HSS) bolted to the floor of the bombardiers compartment which was the top of the wheel well. Vibrations were obviously easily transferred in this area.
Other modifications with 5-6 guns in the nose (e.g. 341.BG in CBI) had the guns attached differently and I do not remember seeing a plane without the "flap"-cover.
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- #14
Agreed Catch22, I have been trying to figure out what modifications where done at Townsville Australia or at least any documentation on it.
Pappy Gunn's modifications were initially performed by the 81-st Air Depot Group at Eagles farm near Brisbane. The project was later taken over by the 4-th Air Depot Group at Townsville (check "The Magnificent Medium" by Norm Avery). I think they did the same modifications. Of course they did more changes which we can't see (e.g. long range tank etc.), but the specification was similar.
Below a partial photo of a B-25C1 from TAD (Townsville Air Depot). The external guns with the blast tubes are very characteristic.
Check this very informative site. I remember using it a few years ago when researching the B-25. Try to open as many links as possible - there are hundreds of "hidden" photos. Link for TAD is here.
Cheers!
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- #16
Pappy Gunn's modifications were initially performed by the 81-st Air Depot Group at Eagles farm near Brisbane. The project was later taken over by the 4-th Air Depot Group at Townsville (check "The Magnificent Medium" by Norm Avery). I think they did the same modifications. Of course they did more changes which we can't see (e.g. long range tank etc.), but the specification was similar.
Below a partial photo of a B-25C1 from TAD (Townsville Air Depot). The external guns with the blast tubes are very characteristic.
Check this very informative site. I remember using it a few years ago when researching the B-25. Try to open as many links as possible - there are hundreds of "hidden" photos. Link for TAD is here.
Cheers!
Thanks Catch22, I know the site and have been slowing going through it and I also have the book The Magnificent Medium, very good book. I've been trying to organize my notes on a lot of it but would love to find some declassified notes on the configurations of the Medium bombers in Australia.
thanks for your comments and help on this
Paul
Paul, try to contact Phil Marchese (a.k.a. Flip in some forums) if you find his email somewhere. I think he has the most detailed information about the Pacific modifications, known as C1 and D1 (and the later ones G1, H1 etc.). Check the 6-th comment in this thread - he mentions the above modifications. I myself have more information about B-25 mods in the MTO. Phil was writing in the old armyairforces-forum before and is in the new one as well. Try there.
Good Luck with your research!
Yves
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- #18
Thank you very much for the info Yves, you may find this web site interesting on B-25's in the Med. Some of the best documented combat logs I have seen. I wish other groups where as detailed for crews and aircraft.
B-25s of the MTO's 12th, 310th, 319th, 321st, 340th Bomb Groups, European-African-Middle Eastern (EAME) Campaign
B-25s of the MTO's 12th, 310th, 319th, 321st, 340th Bomb Groups, European-African-Middle Eastern (EAME) Campaign
Thank you, Paul! I follow this site since years. I spent many hours reading the war diaries of the above mentioned groups. I even tried to contribute with some explanations and clarifications about the photos there (e.g. some photos from the movie "Catch 22" were misinterpreted as war photos). IMHO with all linked sites this is The biggest internet source for information about the medium BGs in the MTO. Through this siet I made contact with one of the veterans from the 310-th BG. (George Underwood) who gave me invaluable firs hand information.
Regards!
Yves
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- #20
No problem Yves, you may find this interesting, found this on accident one day. It shows some of the modifications done on PBJ-1's (Marine B-25's) in the Pacific for 613 squadron
Aircraft Modifications
All the best
Paul
Aircraft Modifications
All the best
Paul
