Battle of Germany= Could LW have done better?

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All it took was the LW deploying the Me-262 in full scale in 1943 and the Allies would've been repulsed completely. Hitler made sure that didn't happen.

But still, this wouldn't ensure any victory, it would seriously prolong the war though.

PS: I agree completely with Erich, Les Bill on most points - good posts guys!
 
Erich said:
Bill even with no escorts in the south from the 15th and even with the 15th heavies unescorted it still take away portions of 109 equipped JG 27, ZG's 101, 1 and 76............and these were needed full time to take on the 8th heavies. it was spread thin even by January 1, 1944. crazy but even the s/e ground attack Fw's were used against the US 15th AF
back soon
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True, and when the 15th say, coordinated an attack with 8th and went to Munich or Linz while 8th went to Leipzig then JG27 and ZG26 would probably be on the 15th..
 
pbfoot said:
I've tried to build up a picture in my head about the length of the formations the US forces used in the attacks . This is pretty important for if the formation is relativly small in area 40-50 mile as I would assume it would be to facilitate maximum fighter coverage and mutual fire support amongst the bombers . The escort fighters would never very far from the bombers .
Now I might be incorrect but I'm going to assume the LW fighter units were not up to strength and very rarely met the fighters from a position of strength as they were not massed and attacked from various bases and at different times .
I've seen the numbers you've mentioned earlier but LW fighters on the ground does not equate to LW fighters in the air and same area as the USAAF
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Pb - the March 6 Berlin mission had approximately 30 bomb groups in 100mi stream in three Bomb divisions - escorted beyond Dummer lake by two P-38 and three P-51 groups to cover that entire force.

Each Wing, comprised of 4-6 Groups would fly in about 8-10miles of 'boxes'..

But often many Gruppe's of LW fighters were co-ordinated successfully when the Controllers guessed the target correctly and put them together in perhaps a 10 mile space in front of the bomber stream or in the middle or in trail depending on where they thought the escort 'wasn't'.

Just as frequently individual Gruppe's of 30-100 fighters would hit at different points of this long column, staying for persistent attacks when no escort fighters were encountered or diving away after one pass when the Mustangs were there.
 
in and out today trying to cheer up my beleagured wife

winter drape time with Fw 190A-8/R8's imprinted all over them..you can only see them during late afternoon ................ nah but I wish :lol:

Soren I think it would not of mattered even in 43 with the Me 262's there are so many what-ifs about it's short range, extra fuel tanks, too quick power, how many needed yes full strength staffeln or Geschwader or ? Even with the December 43 arrival of the P-51B of the 9ths 354th fg they were definately making their presence felt as the Mustang was going through the LW pilot circles as the main point to shoot one down damaged and have it shown to all to find it's weak points.

and here is my prime point and an early one at that even though the LW called it a victory for the first Sturmgruppen attack the combined ops of the 8th and 15th on 7.07.1944 was to prove a small disaster for the Lw, they could not be everywhere at once, only if the 15th AF would come into the central zone of Germany like they did could the LW in strength in the Northern sphere be best put to use. the JG 3 and JG 300 Sturms attacked both the 8th and the 15th bombers with 50 kills confirmed. and even in the books how strange and convoluted it was as the Me 410 Geschwaders were given kills-quite a few actually, but in reality they were hit so hard they may have scored 1-2, their ranks of the me 410 fell like flies to the guns of the US fighters.
 
lesofprimus said:
Bill, that link u posted is excellently done, thx for that... I was aware of 24 Apr 44, but now have my fill of it, thx...

.
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Forgot to mention this, Dan - the primary reason for that piece was to show just how difficult it was to cover five Combat Wings of 250 B-17s attacking three targets in same area. This particular mission had two experienced Mustang Groups who really cared about protecting the bombers.

The secondary reason was to show how flights here, and sections there, were committed to the battle - as contrast with a commonly held point of view that three squadrons of rabid Mustangs all 'lost their minds' and bounced 6 stray 109s.

The Luftwaffe skillfully stalked the B-17s, attacked, and in turn, were attacked all along the bomber track. After attacking, some of the 51s recovered and climbed back to continue - others headed for home and shot up targets of opportunity... But at the end of the day it was one huge goat for*%*$#n, particularly when one Combat Wing loses sight of lead Wing and wanders off track.
 
question Bill : has Mike Williams started putting together the materials on 26 November 44 from you or have you sent him anything on this engagement ? Neil Page and I had done up something on 7-7-44 on our old web-pages of the Sturmgruppen but that was only part 1, some new things have come to light, but I am waiting for an anticipated book on 14.Sturm/JG 3 to be released before I put up anything more on the net, am also working personally on 21 Novewmber 44 my cousins first hectic mission he flew and that was a bad op for the LW as well
 
Erich said:
question Bill : has Mike Williams started putting together the materials on 26 November 44 from you or have you sent him anything on this engagement ? Neil Page and I had done up something on 7-7-44 on our old web-pages of the Sturmgruppen but that was only part 1, some new things have come to light, but I am waiting for an anticipated book on 14.Sturm/JG 3 to be released before I put up anything more on the net, am also working personally on 21 Novewmber 44 my cousins first hectic mission he flew and that was a bad op for the LW as well
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E ~ I haven't touched bases with Mike lately but will follow up.

I've got some stuff on 355FG for July 7 and I'm trying to dig up the 8th AF Mission Summaries for 16 March, 12 May, 7 July, and 26 November.

I'll send you what I have on 7 July/355FG via email
 
Here is what I have on the 7 July deal from 355FG point of view. As April 24, the 354FS, then 357FS waded in while the 358FS stayed behind and covered.

July 7

F.O.436. Lieutenant Colonel Kinnard led a Ramrod to support B-24s attacking oil and aircraft assembly targets at Halle, near Leipzig.

Rendezvous was made with 2nd and 95th CW's at 0808 near Lingen at 0808 and escorted over and to the IP southwest Leipzig at 0922. .As the formations swung back the north and west toward Halle they encountered the first gaggle of 100 plus single and twin engine fighters about 20 miles west of Leipzig near Querfurt.. The first wave was described as "6-8 in line abreast, 8 plus flights in trail" coming in north to south at 27,000 feet. A high cover of approximately 35-40 Me 109s were flying at 32,000 feet.

This force was only part of the estimated 300 German fighters that the Luftwaffe control group put in this area and were primarily focused on the 14th CBW with the 44th, 392 and 492nd BG's who were tasked to bomb Bernburg. The 2nd AD had split the different B-24 Combat Wings near Brunswick with one force turning south then east then north to hit Halle while the 14th and 96th continued onward to Bernburg.

Kinnard bent his throttle to intercept and his lead flight of the 354FS surged way ahead of the rest of the group. The 358FS maintained close escort for the 389th and 453rd BG's, while the rest of the 354th and the 357FS broke into the Me 410s and Me 109s. One B-24 from 95th CW, 489th BG, was hit and seen to separate from the formation. It later ditched into North Sea.

Kinnard quickly shot down two ZG26 Me 410s and then shot down a Me 109 to become the 355th's seventh air ace. His wingman, Lieutenant Huish, collided with trailing debris from one of Kinnard's exploding Me 410s to become the group's first loss of the day. Huish crashed at Bendeleben, west of Halle and north of Merseburg Betounes and Bob Taylor shared a 109 before the rest escaped below. Cross shot down a pair of 410's and Emil Perry got another before the 357FS caught up

As the 354th and 357FS were engaging, 20mi to the northwest the 20th and 55th FG Lightnings were also engaged in a big fight.

The Luftwaffe controllers had found the 14th CW attacking Bernburg almost completely undefended. The Luftwaffe had deployed their first Fw 190 "Sturmbock" attack with Fw 190A-8's heavily armored and equipped with 30mm cannon. In just over a minute 12 B-24s from the 492nd BG went down in flames between Halberstadt and Bernburg. Eight more 14th CW B-24s in the 44th and 392nd BGs would fall to the Fw 190s before the P-38s arrived.

To further complicate the situation, the 2nd and 95th CW's after bombing Halle targets found themselves in a collision couse with the southeast bound 14th and 96th CW striking for Bernburg! At the end of the day this was not the best day for 8th AF mission planners.

Even though the 55th FG Lightnings were covering the 14th CBW including the 392nd, 492nd and 44th BG, they could not defend against the total of 175 single engine and twin engine fighters the Luftwaffe concentrated on the middle of the 14th CBW. The primary assault was carried out by I. II./ZG26, IV./JG3 and I.&II. /JG300

The downside of the modifications to the Fw 190A-8's, to be more effective against bombers, was that they were nearly helpless against the Mustangs and Lightnings in the area. They were just too heavy and sluggish at that altitude to escape. They had to have the same escort from Me 109s at high altitude as the Me 410's.

Captain Minchew led one section of the 357th FS into the scrap about 20+ miles west of Halle. About 25 Me 410s were leaving the battle area in a shallow dive at about 10,000 feet. Minchew quickly shot down two 410s and shared a third with a 55th FG P-38 which cut in front of him. McNeff got a Me 109 which was closing on Minchew's tail. Minchew then chased after several more Me 410's of ZG26 and damaged two more heavily SE Nordhausen before running out of ammo.

Haviland, led the second section of 357FS toward the gaggle of Me 410s heading to the southwest. He shot down two 410s immediately and his flight chased 30-40 more Me 410's south toward Naumburg, where Fuller and Cotter each shot down another Me 410. The Me 410's were described as flying an efficient formation but only dived to evade. Lieutenant Fuller was closing on a Me 410 near Naumburg A/D but was hit by flak at 7,000 feet. He bailed out 10 mi SSE Weimar and his chute was seen to open but he did not turn up after the war.

The 55th FG scored 19 destroyed for no losses in and around Bernburg. The 4th and 20th and 361st FG engaged remnants of JG300 plus JG3 and JG51 further north and NW of Halle to score 23 more for the loss of two shot down.

Col Glenn Duncan, outstanding leader of 353rd FG was shot down by flak over Holland and fought three months with Dutch Underground before getting back to Allied lines.

Claiborne Kinnard received the 355th FG's second Distinguished Service Cross for his leadership and courage in this day's action.

Final score 14.5-0-4 for two losses


 
sure send away Bill, Les pointed out the older posting on the Sturm site, the US 8th AF 492nd and two other B-24 outfits got hit pretty hard on the 7-7-44 date.

E
 
lesofprimus said:
Yea, the only recorded victory is a B-17 shot down near Madgeburg... However, the Americans admitted the loss of 33 4 engined bombers and 15 escorts, with 12 bombers and 9 fighters lost over Thuringia...
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Dan - My primary source for losses are Mighty 8th War Diary and Mighty 8th Combat Chronology. Just purely for the discussion around Merseburg/Halle/Leipzig Task Forces during July 7 this is what I have (cross referenced with Miller on 8th FC losses)

They both (M8WD and M8CC) agree 28 total B-24s lost for 2nd Div. For air to air losses (including mid air combat collisions plus ditch on way back)) there were 23 lost to fighters, 1 C/L after take off to form up over Channel coast outbound, and 4 lost to flak.

LW awards were for 54 B-24s to 23 actually lost air to air in 8th AF records.

The 1st and 3rd lost 0 air, 4 flak and 9 'other' B-17s (C/L on TO, M/A while forming or outbound over Channel).

LW awards were 5 B-17s shot down air to air to the zero contained in 8th AF records

From Kent Miller and my own research, 8th FC lost 2 Mustangs to air collisions with Me 410 debris, one P-38 shot down by a Me 410 and one P-51 shot down by Me 109 plus one P-51 and one P-47 to flak.

LW awards were 6 P-51s, 7 P-38s to the 3 P-51s and 1 P-38 actually lost in air combat, and two of those were to debris from a blown up Me 410..

The two worst things (from USAAF perspective) is that the 353rd lost Col Glen Duncan shot down by flak over Holland - even though he evaded and returned months later - and the Fw 190A8 proved devastating if 'unmolested'

There were nearly 2.5x the awards of bombers shot down by LW in Tony Woods/Les Butler tables than actually shot down by fighters.. Erich and I have scratched our heads over awards of Me 410s' credited to 8th AF in this battle also.

I suspect that the rest of the 'missing fighters' out of the 15 you mention were 9th AF in France during Ground support??

Overclaiming on both sides
 
Erich said:
sure send away Bill, Les pointed out the older posting on the Sturm site, the US 8th AF 492nd and two other B-24 outfits got hit pretty hard on the 7-7-44 date.

E
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The 492nd lost 12 of 12 to the Fw 190s and/or Me 410s - probably the Fw 190A8s. The 389th lost 5 of 7 to German fighters, the 392nd lost 3 air and 1 C/L on Take Off, the 44th lost 3 - all air.

Bad day for the 492nd. Bad day for anyone that was KIA that day.
 
I personally think that there was more than 12 B-24's of the 492nd lost due to chatting several times with the bomb group historian of the outfit who also wrote a book on the unit A. Blue. 50 bombers were conseded by both the 8th and the 15th AF in the official losses listing which I need to pull for the resource document heading. Some 25-30 bombers were shot down by IV.Sturm/JG 3 alone one reason of the unusual visit by Geschwader Kommodroe Walter Dahl and stab to congratulate the pilots of JG 3 upon their return of their first organized Sturm attack from the rear. we still do not have all the details from the US official losses as some are being mislead as to the true details as there are more than what have been released. Literally the US bomber crews really never had seen anything so organized and massive the 492nd was cut through like hot kniofe to butter while the Fw 190's went straight ahead and tore through the other B-24 pulks ahead of the 492nd doing the same damage until US escorts woke up to what was going on. The Me 410's tried to make an attack but failed having to fight it out with US P-51's, Is official sources state that at least 5 Bombers fell to Me 410 guns..........actually none fell to the twin engines they were cut off and shot to pieces, all bombers were s/e kills, when the Sturms of JG 3 and JG 300 left the 8th they went an attacked the 15th AF bombers which is really another story altogether and little if anything has been written about this portion of the monster air battle
 
lesofprimus said:
Interesting, very interesting information bein shared here.... Great stuff...

I pulled my info out of Willi's JG301/302 book....
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Dan - gotta laugh my ass off.

Every time I see a reference to US losses in context of 'admitted' it is usually found in a book by either a German author or about Luftwaffe (like Caldwell)..

It is almost like there was a conspiracy to keep losses 'quiet'. On one hand the papers weren't fed a steady stream of losses when we got clobbered but our records are pretty good, and all survived the war... and the Macr's tell the tale of the missing.

Where I agree the possible distortions is that we had so many heavily damaged that returned - but either in the shop for a long time or salvaged- that's kinda like a 40-60% 'damaged' on hte Luftwaffe side - it got the hell shot out of it and crash landed but maybe repaired - so 'no loss' in the books.

When ours crash landed in Germany or Holland or France with 40-60% damage it was LOST because that crew wasn't landing in friendly territory

It's much tougher to find accurate German records because so many were lost at the end of the war... and our historians are more prone to really look at the damage unless they have some kind of agenda.
 
Erich said:
I personally think that there was more than 12 B-24's of the 492nd lost due to chatting several times with the bomb group historian of the outfit who also wrote a book on the unit A. Blue. 50 bombers were conseded by both the 8th and the 15th AF in the official losses listing which I need to pull for the resource document heading.

Erich - I have no problem with your thesis, but as I noted to Dan there ain't no lyin in the Macr's. That will tell the tale on ships that did not return. I have done random samples, and while I find errors in MAWD and M8CC the NUMBER of losses if not the Reason is close to the number of MACR's

Where do you find gross errors?

As to 15th I wasn't discussing 15th because they weren't in the Halle/Mersburg/Leipzig fight and they aren't the ones I was referencing in Woods/Butler - there are separate listings altogether for 15th AF related stuff (and 9th re; Luftflotte 3 totals for 7 July)

Some 25-30 bombers were shot down by IV.Sturm/JG 3 alone one reason of the unusual visit by Geschwader Kommodroe Walter Dahl and stab to congratulate the pilots of JG 3 upon their return of their first organized Sturm attack from the rear. we still do not have all the details from the US official losses as some are being mislead as to the true details as there are more than what have been released. Literally the US bomber crews really never had seen anything so organized and massive the 492nd was cut through like hot kniofe to butter while the Fw 190's went straight ahead and tore through the other B-24 pulks ahead of the 492nd doing the same damage until US escorts woke up to what was going on. The Me 410's tried to make an attack but failed having to fight it out with US P-51's, Is official sources state that at least 5 Bombers fell to Me 410 guns..........actually none fell to the twin engines they were cut off and shot to pieces, all bombers were s/e kills, when the Sturms of JG 3 and JG 300 left the 8th they went an attacked the 15th AF bombers which is really another story altogether and little if anything has been written about this portion of the monster air battle
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E- I would be interested regarding another solid reference for 8th AF losses. So far I rely on:

Mighty 8th War Diary, Mighty eighth combat chronology, fighter units and pilots of 8th AF, the Macr database on armyairforces.com for combat losses plus different historical references including my own. Once again all have errors but not 2x errors by any stretch..and my primary LW is Woods and Butler plus all the Prien and Caldwell etc sources plus you and Leo Etgen, etc.

I have found that the 8th AF Mission Summaries also coincide with the M8WD and M8CC pretty closely so I suspect Roger Freeman depended heavily on 8th AF records. Wish he was still around

Regards,

Bill

I'm always looking for 'truth' (whatever the hell that is)..
 
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