BATTLE OF THE NIGHT FIGHTERS

[Elvis]

P-61 vs. BF-110 (Night Fighter version)

...please discuss...

 

[nuuumannn]

A couple of thoughts, Elvis, it depends on what you want to find out. In terms of combat results, the Bf 110 was probably (I could go look for figures but I cannae be bothered) the highest scoring night fighter of the war, which immediately earns it success, but the P-61 was purpose designed and was more innovative than the Bf 110, not only that but it was a newer design. The Bf 110 should have been retired from the frontline sooner than it was but for the Me 210 being a disaster, so you are comparing a pre war design with a late war one.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Agreed, I don't think its a good comparison. The Bf 110 is a 1930s design. The P-61 is a 1940s purpose built night fighter. The fact that Bf 110 was as successful as a night fighter through to the end bodes well for its design though.

A better comparison is the P-61 vs. He 219.

 

[Howard Gibson]

P-61 vs. BF-110 (Night Fighter version)

...please discuss...

What is the context here? Are they dogfighting or just shooting down as many bombers as possible.

My understanding that Mosquitos hunted German night fighters by hanging around airfields and shooting them down as they took off or landed. The British did not want to risk their radar falling into German hands.

What did a Bf110 cost, compared to a P-61? If I need to shoot down bombers, ten Bf110s is better than six or eight P-61s. Absolute, maximum performance is a requirement for day fighters.

 

[EwenS]

My understanding that Mosquitos hunted German night fighters by hanging around airfields and shooting them down as they took off or landed. The British did not want to risk their radar falling into German hands.

True for the earlier part of the war but not later.

In 1942 intruder Mosquitos were stripped of their radars. By mid 1943 Beaufighters and Mosquitos equipped with Serrate, a radar detector based on AI.IV, were prowling European skies. Later AI.IV, AI.VIII, AI.X and AI.XV equipped Mosquitos of 100 Group supported bomber operations over Germany. Radar equipped P-61s also flew over German skies in 1944/45.

 

[SaparotRob]

I have read (or hallucinated) many posts pointing out the foibles of the P-61and how it could've been improved. What I've read here about the Bf-110 is basically it had to be used past its expiration date. I'd pick the Bf-110 over the P-61. As to which posts, I invoke the nuuumannn defense.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Plane v plane it could be a toss-up, but the record and the exigencies of the circumstances says -110. I wonder what the German night-fighter pilots could have done with the -61?

 

[RagTag]

What an interesting topic because it weaves technology with aerodynamics. It seems like this discussion could become a presage of the current BVR fighter combat, only within the bounds of VR being limited then to nighttime vision range and ability of early radar to overcome that. The Bf-110 might almost be of competitive performance if clean, but what did the radar array do to affect that? I'd like to see a comparison of the P-61 with the He-219 as they were contemporaries, meeting as single plane intruders approaching head on at the same altitude to make a level playing field. Oh, and assume the Uhu does not have the advantage of German ground control radar. Who sees who first? Who has the best radar? Wikipedia gives the Uhu a 3-to-4-mile radar interception range, and the P-61 a 5-mile range. Enough to make a difference?. You also have the P-61 with an extra set of gunner eyeballs with a rear facing radar operator, and tail warning radar. But the 2 man Uhu crew is in an all-around vision bubble canopy.

It would be an interesting dance, with the He-219 and its fixed schrage musik pair of 30 mm cannon firing up and the P-61 with its elevating and trainable gun turret with 4 - 50 calibers, and both with roughly equivalent 20mm cannon fire power head on depending on the He-219 gun package. Wikipedia sets the Uhu A7 top speed at 420 mph, Plane Encyclopedia at 375 mph without radar array but dropping to a dismal 347 mph with the array, and Capt. Eric Brown gives it in personal testing a top speed of 378 or 363 mph in his book, not that far off of a "clean" P-61. Brown was not totally impressed with the Uhu, rating it with unimpressive climbing ability, sluggish acceleration, and being underpowered. So with this limited consideration of qualities, I'll take the P-61 over the older and more limited Bf-110 and based on the P-61 beating the maneuverability of the Mosquito in a mock duel as indicating its "dogfighting" prowess, the P-61 over the He-219.

 

[EwenS]

Couple of points to bear in mind about the P-61.

Firstly, the radar operator in the rear compartment faced forward to operate the radar, as in the photo below. So he can't simultaneously be doing that and keeping a lookout out of the rear plexiglass.

Northrop P-61 Black Widow - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Secondly, many of the turretless P-61A and early P-61B-1 to -10 models operated by he 422nd and 425th NFS in North West Europe were converted locally to 2 seaters. The gunner was dropped from the crew and the aircraft reconfigured with the radar operator in his place up front, which was found better from a crew co-ordination perspective. These models made up about half of all WW2 P-61 production.

 

[Snautzer01]

D Dana Bell . Bell's view on the p-61. Not a fan.

XB-42?

I've done some more research into my files and come up with some interesting information. First, the Attack version(s): There were three (3) different attack nose variations proposed in Douglas April, 1944 brochure. Specifically, one nose would have a 75mm cannon with 20 rounds of...

ww2aircraft.net

 

[Vincenzo]

P-61 is very heavy airplane, if i'm right around 13 tons clean, the Bf-110G it's around 8 tons
take in the count at time the P-61 available was the B; it's possible that the radar give a advantage to the north american product but it's probably some times more expansive of a 110. So the P-61 is better only if you are the US for all the others is better the 110

 

[Snautzer01]

P-61 is very heavy airplane, if i'm right around 13 tons clean, the Bf-110G it's around 8 tons
take in the count at time the P-61 available was the B; it's possible that the radar give a advantage to the north american product but it's probably some times more expansive of a 110. So the P-61 is better only if you are the US for all the others is better the 110

You really should read what Dana wrote in the thread i supplied in post 10

 

[wuzak]

P-61 is very heavy airplane, if i'm right around 13 tons clean, the Bf-110G it's around 8 tons
take in the count at time the P-61 available was the B; it's possible that the radar give a advantage to the north american product but it's probably some times more expansive of a 110. So the P-61 is better only if you are the US for all the others is better the 110

The He 219 was around 11 tonnes empty. The P-61 was similar.

 

[Vincenzo]

You really should read what Dana wrote in the thread i supplied in post 10

i just read, very good, probably i've read it at time but forget

 

[Ovod]

Plane v plane it could be a toss-up, but the record and the exigencies of the circumstances says -110. I wonder what the German night-fighter pilots could have done with the -61?

Seen as it was faster, had greater endurance, had a better radar and heavier armament compared to the Bf 110, the German pilots would probably have shot down more four-engine bombers with it, surely? The P-61 was the better plane certainly.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Seen as it was faster, had greater endurance, had a better radar and heavier armament compared to the Bf 110, the German pilots would probably have shot down more four-engine bombers with it, surely? The P-61 was the better plane certainly.

I'd guess if they'd already trained with and liked Schrage Musik they would remove the turret and replace with twin 30mm? That'd save weight of installation and crewman and allow them their favored and safest approach.

 

[Snautzer01]

D Dana Bell to write a book called The P-61; It Really Sucked, but it was the Best We Had?


Please do. The hype, seems like the thread of a color picture, un killable.

 

[Dana Bell]

Hi all!

I've been avoiding the current discussion of the P-61, mostly because I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. I had plans to be much farther along on my night fighter research by now, but the Archives have been closed for almost two years, and everything is on hold. Once things reopen, I have high hopes of tracking down the many missing pieces.

Here's my current work plan - note that I have enough information to complete only the first three projects, then I'm out of action again:

Rivet Counters' Guide #1 -- F4U-1 Corsair cockpits (going to the printer in two weeks)
A-10 developmental color schemes
Rivet Counters' Guide #2 -- Prewar USN PBYs

USN Aircraft Camouflages of WWII (based on internal correspondence telling the stories of how and why the schemes came about)
Rivet Counters' Guide #3 -- US Military Aircraft Interior Colors and Primers through 1949
Rivet Counters' Guide #4 -- The history of the US National Insignia
USN Battleship and Cruiser Aviation through December 1941
Trans-Atlantic Flight Attempts before September 1939
Rivet Counters' Guide #5 -- F4U-4 Corsair
Rivet Counters' Guide #6 -- F6F Hellcat
America and WWII's Search for the Ultimate Night Fighter

As you can see, the P-61 story is a good bit down the list. It is the most complicated story to tell, and I've got several linear feet of records that I've been collecting since 1972.

While most of my scheduling used to revolve around what I most wanted to write about, lately -- with my youngest getting ready for college -- I've had to concentrate on what I can publish quickly to help with the cash flow. Like the modeler who knows he will live until he's built every kit in his stash, I'm pretty sure I'll just have to stay healthy until I've written all these books and a handful more that want to be added to the list.

Anyhow, I'm sorry that I can't produce the proof of all I've written here about problems with the P-61 - there's just too much to do and too little time!

Cheers,



Dana

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hi all!

I've been avoiding the current discussion of the P-61, mostly because I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. I had plans to be much farther along on my night fighter research by now, but the Archives have been closed for almost two years, and everything is on hold. Once things reopen, I have high hopes of tracking down the many missing pieces.

Here's my current work plan - note that I have enough information to complete only the first three projects, then I'm out of action again:

Rivet Counters' Guide #1 -- F4U-1 Corsair cockpits (going to the printer in two weeks)
A-10 developmental color schemes
Rivet Counters' Guide #2 -- Prewar USN PBYs

USN Aircraft Camouflages of WWII (based on internal correspondence telling the stories of how and why the schemes came about)
Rivet Counters' Guide #3 -- US Military Aircraft Interior Colors and Primers through 1949
Rivet Counters' Guide #4 -- The history of the US National Insignia
USN Battleship and Cruiser Aviation through December 1941
Trans-Atlantic Flight Attempts before September 1939
Rivet Counters' Guide #5 -- F4U-4 Corsair
Rivet Counters' Guide #6 -- F6F Hellcat
America and WWII's Search for the Ultimate Night Fighter

As you can see, the P-61 story is a good bit down the list. It is the most complicated story to tell, and I've got several linear feet of records that I've been collecting since 1972.

While most of my scheduling used to revolve around what I most wanted to write about, lately -- with my youngest getting ready for college -- I've had to concentrate on what I can publish quickly to help with the cash flow. Like the modeler who knows he will live until he's built every kit in his stash, I'm pretty sure I'll just have to stay healthy until I've written all these books and a handful more that want to be added to the list.

Anyhow, I'm sorry that I can't produce the proof of all I've written here about problems with the P-61 - there's just too much to do and too little time!

Cheers,



Dana

Dana - no worries, the quality of your work speaks for itself, glad you're a participant on this forum!

 

[Snautzer01]

Someone should. It would be a good thing not reading fan boi stuff. Oh well. It is a pretty plane.