Thumpalumpacus
Major
That part of the world, let the sharks do the dirty work.
Beaufighter vs. Axis fighters
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
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That part of the world, let the sharks do the dirty work.
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,712
- May 13, 2018
I recall one of the books in my stuff about Bataan/Corregidor had an account on Bataan where the front line was blurred and a Sergeant armed only with his issue revolver had taken cover in a shell hole. During the shelling a young Japanese soldier, who had lost his rifle, jumped in for cover. They looked at each other, knowing what must be done, and the Japanese took out pictures of his young wife and small child. The Sergeant shook his head and the Japanese soldier bowed his head in prayer and was shot. As a teen, the reality of what must be done in war was a shock.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 932
- Sep 30, 2021
That section of the report does not include allied casualties. The Beaufighters were used in the morning raid.
Wildcat
Major
On 2 Mar, 30 squadron had 15 serviceable Beaufighters. They launched 13 aircraft for the 3 Mar strike against the convoy, so not a bad effort. A19-53 piloted by Sgt Downing with Sgt Box, observer crash landed at Popendetta after its port engine was shot out, starboard engine damaged and wing set on fire by 2 zero's. Both crew were WIA. The aircraft was repaired and returned to service 4 months later.
Hi
Are you suggesting that "mast-head bombing" and "turning light bombers into strafers" was somehow a 'new' technique?
The RAF's Blenheim light bombers had been undertaking that technique throughout 1941 against the Germans, generally using delayed action bombs to avoid being caught in the blast, No. 82 Sqn. Blenheim below:
The risks were high, the German shipping was heavily defended by Flak ships as well as hitting the masts of the ships at very low level, as below:
Top left is a 21 Sqn Blenheim (V6034) with part of the wing missing after hitting a mast, Sgt. Rex Leavers DFM and his crew were KIA on 16 June 1941.
Mike
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
No I wasn't suggesting that they invented mast-head bombing, it's more that they learned of it's existence and figured it out, and adjusted their aircraft and strategy, and trained the crews quickly enough to make it work. And I think the 5th Air Force had the most effective use of the strategy during the War, though it was also used in the Med and I think by the Soviets.
I don't see Blenheim's as ideal weapons for this role though...
The guys in the podcast also had a great point about Pappy Gunn. He was making quite extensive modifications to these aircraft, which, as the podcast guys noted, changes the weight distribution and so on. If this hadn't been done in reality and was being suggested in this forum I bet people would say it was impossible for those reasons - 8 or 10 12.7 HMG plus armor and ammunition weighs a lot more than a navigator with one gun and a Norden bombsight. But I guess the guy knew enough about aircraft to make all the necessary adjustments.
The innovation of 5th AF and the Aussies was to use the strafers (Beaufighters, B-25s, A-20s), skip-bombers (B-25s and A-20s), masthead bombers (B-25s and A-20s) and torpedo bombers (Beauforts) in coordinated attacks. The Japanese ships thought the strafers and skip bombers were on torpedo runs (and there were enough Beauforts around to keep them guessing) so they would turn their bow or stern toward the attack to present a smaller target. This made them easier / safer to strafe. And strafing them more or less to death made it safer for the B-25s and A-20s to lay eggs on them.
I don't see Blenheim's as ideal weapons for this role though...
The guys in the podcast also had a great point about Pappy Gunn. He was making quite extensive modifications to these aircraft, which, as the podcast guys noted, changes the weight distribution and so on. If this hadn't been done in reality and was being suggested in this forum I bet people would say it was impossible for those reasons - 8 or 10 12.7 HMG plus armor and ammunition weighs a lot more than a navigator with one gun and a Norden bombsight. But I guess the guy knew enough about aircraft to make all the necessary adjustments.
The innovation of 5th AF and the Aussies was to use the strafers (Beaufighters, B-25s, A-20s), skip-bombers (B-25s and A-20s), masthead bombers (B-25s and A-20s) and torpedo bombers (Beauforts) in coordinated attacks. The Japanese ships thought the strafers and skip bombers were on torpedo runs (and there were enough Beauforts around to keep them guessing) so they would turn their bow or stern toward the attack to present a smaller target. This made them easier / safer to strafe. And strafing them more or less to death made it safer for the B-25s and A-20s to lay eggs on them.
Hi
No the Blenheim was not really suitable but it was what was available during 1941, by 1942 the Beaufighter was being used with Strike Wings being formed. These used co-ordinated attacks with anti-flak (strafers) Beaufighters, with cannon and 250 lb bombs going in and attracting attention, followed up with Torbeaus. A simplified diagram of an attack made on 20th November, 1942, below:
This is from 'The Strike Wings, Special Anti-Shipping Squadrons 1942-45' by Roy Conyers Nesbit, which gives good detail as does the 'A Forgotten Offensive, Royal Air Force Coastal Command's Anti-Shipping Campaign, 1940-1945' by Christina J M Goulter. From about April 1943 rockets were being introduced into the Beaufighter Strike Wings.
Mike
Glider
Captain
It always says a lot when you see the number of vessels the Germans used to defend such a small number of cargo vessels.
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
how did the Beaufighters fare against II/JG-1
Hi
This raid by the Strike Wing was not considered a success and various changes were made to the tactics and procedures. Three crews were KIA and the aircraft lost, two others were written off after crash landings in UK, others had to be repaired. One Beaufighter was shot down by the German fighters three others, at least, were damaged the fighters attacked when the Beaufighters were approaching the target and then again on the way out. The German fighters had to keep clear of the convoy to avoid 'friendly flak'. Two others were lost to Flak, mainly by the escorts, but the German shore batteries also fired on the Beaufighters. The losses to the fighters were due, it appears, to the 11 Spitfire escorts turning up a few minutes late at the rendezvous and the Strike Wing leader had decided to go on without them, he was KIA (by Flak). His replacement instituted a number of changes which included not to undertake missions without a fighter escort present. It was also noted, afterwards, that the Torbeaus attacking from the Dutch shore side were over water that was too shallow for torpedo dropping (three hit the seabed on being dropped) and in future they should make attacks from the sea side of the convoys.
Mike
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
Very interesting. By this time in the war with aircraft like Fw 190 around I would definitely think fighter escort is a must...
The worst day for the Strike Wings was "Black Friday", 9 Feb 1945 when 32 Beaufighters from the Dallachy Wing escorted by 10 Mustangs from Peterhead were ordered to strike German warships sheltering in a Norwegian fjord. During the attack they were bounced by a dozen Fw190.
Result - 7 Beaufighters were lost to flak and another 2 to fighters, with many more badly shot up, 2 so badly that they crash landed at Dallachy. 6 of the losses came from the Canadians of 404 squadron, who had dispatched 11 rocket armed aircraft that afternoon. A Mustang was also lost.
The German fighters had achieved surprise and followed the Beaus into the fjord, eventually losing 5 of their number including Leutnant Rudi Linz, who had already been credited with 69 victories.
en.m.wikipedia.org
From Sept 1944, 7 of the 9 Coastal Command Beaufighter and Mosquito strike squadrons were based at Banff and Dallachy in North East Scotland to interdict shipping traffic in Norwegian waters. They were aided by the Mosquito flight from 333(Norwegian) squadron whose crews used their local knowledge to seek out shipping hiding in the fjords. Long range Mustangs replaced Spitfires at Peterhead from Nov to provide escorts.
Looking at things from the other side, a major part of Coastal Command's early war effort was flying defensive patrols over convoys in British waters with Blenheim IF & IVF (the versions with the belly pack containing 4x0.303 MG). These were augmented by Beaufighters from 1941. Fighter Command squadrons also played a part in providing cover especially in those areas adjacent to the Western Approaches and East Coast convoy routes.
Result - 7 Beaufighters were lost to flak and another 2 to fighters, with many more badly shot up, 2 so badly that they crash landed at Dallachy. 6 of the losses came from the Canadians of 404 squadron, who had dispatched 11 rocket armed aircraft that afternoon. A Mustang was also lost.
The German fighters had achieved surprise and followed the Beaus into the fjord, eventually losing 5 of their number including Leutnant Rudi Linz, who had already been credited with 69 victories.
Black Friday (1945) - Wikipedia
From Sept 1944, 7 of the 9 Coastal Command Beaufighter and Mosquito strike squadrons were based at Banff and Dallachy in North East Scotland to interdict shipping traffic in Norwegian waters. They were aided by the Mosquito flight from 333(Norwegian) squadron whose crews used their local knowledge to seek out shipping hiding in the fjords. Long range Mustangs replaced Spitfires at Peterhead from Nov to provide escorts.
Looking at things from the other side, a major part of Coastal Command's early war effort was flying defensive patrols over convoys in British waters with Blenheim IF & IVF (the versions with the belly pack containing 4x0.303 MG). These were augmented by Beaufighters from 1941. Fighter Command squadrons also played a part in providing cover especially in those areas adjacent to the Western Approaches and East Coast convoy routes.
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
Beaufighter was an excellent weapon, but I would think by later 1944 it's becoming a bit long in the teeth as a design, at least in the European Theater. That said I know they were still used successfully, albeit with casualties.
Spec H.7/42 was issued in Dec 1942 for "a torpedo carrying aircraft derived from the Beaufighter". As the design evolved in 1943 it acquired the wings from the Bristol Buckingham light bomber that never entered service in that role, and Centaurus engines. It emerged for a first flight in Dec 1944 as the Bristol Brigand. Had the war gone on it was planned to send it to the Far East, where it would have survived the climate better than the Mosquito.
The first Brigand TF.Mk.1 were issued to the Air-Sea Warfare Development Unit in 1946 but plans to equip two squadrons in the UK (36 & 42) were abandoned when Coastal Command withdrew from the strike role altogether in 1947. Neither squadron operated the Brigand, contrary to what Wiki suggests. The Brigand was then reroled as a light bomber going on to serve with the RAF in the Middle East from early 1949 and then in Malaya from later that year. Its operational career ended in 1952 but it served as a radar trainer until 1958.
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
neat! Looks like a butch Pe-2 or Tu-2. What is all this stuff on the top of the rear cockpit? Clear radio beacon? What what is the corrugated looking bit over the pilot, is that a convertable roof?
