Best airborne anti shipping weapon?
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parsifal
Colonel
Attacks with 1000kg ordinance by either of the main early war types Ju87B or Ju87R were extremely rare. There is no recorded instances of the R carrying the 1000kg into battle. The B was rated to carry this size of bomb, but with absolute minimum of fuel and no rear gunner
For the attacks on the illustrious, I offer the account given in Norman Friedman's British Carrier Aviation, which I think should be a fairly definitive source.
On 10th January there were eight hits:
1. 500lb bomb on S2 pom-pom
2. 1000lb bomb through port forward end of flight deck, bursting above the water outside the ship
3. 1000lb bomb through the aft lift exploding above the lift platform
4. 1000lb bomb through the flight deck on the centreline, exploding above the hangar deck
5. 500lb bomb on the edge of the aft lift, exploding high in the well
6. 1000lb bomb through P1 pompom, hit edge of armour deck but did not explode, did cause fire
7. 1000lb bomb near miss starboard side aft
8. 500lb bomb down aft liftwell.
On 16th January in Valetta harbour
Several near misses
9. 1000lb bomb through flight deck exploding in captain's day cabin
10. 1000lb bomb nearmiss on portside, causing 5 degree list due to smashed plating, cracking the port turbine feet.
I believe I've seen it written that the Luftwaffe generally carried 1000lb bombs, whilst the the Regia Aeronautica more often carried 500lb, but cannot quote a source.
Would be interested to know what the D carried into battle and how
For the attacks on the illustrious, I offer the account given in Norman Friedman's British Carrier Aviation, which I think should be a fairly definitive source.
On 10th January there were eight hits:
1. 500lb bomb on S2 pom-pom
2. 1000lb bomb through port forward end of flight deck, bursting above the water outside the ship
3. 1000lb bomb through the aft lift exploding above the lift platform
4. 1000lb bomb through the flight deck on the centreline, exploding above the hangar deck
5. 500lb bomb on the edge of the aft lift, exploding high in the well
6. 1000lb bomb through P1 pompom, hit edge of armour deck but did not explode, did cause fire
7. 1000lb bomb near miss starboard side aft
8. 500lb bomb down aft liftwell.
On 16th January in Valetta harbour
Several near misses
9. 1000lb bomb through flight deck exploding in captain's day cabin
10. 1000lb bomb nearmiss on portside, causing 5 degree list due to smashed plating, cracking the port turbine feet.
I believe I've seen it written that the Luftwaffe generally carried 1000lb bombs, whilst the the Regia Aeronautica more often carried 500lb, but cannot quote a source.
Would be interested to know what the D carried into battle and how
I don't know about damaged but I'm sure Ju87s sank similar or greater numbers of vessels.
When 4.(Stuka)/Tr.Gr 186 and II. and III./St.G.2 with IV.(St)/LG 1 attacked the Polish Navy in their first ever actions against shipping they sank Mazur,Nurek,Wicher,Gryf,Gdansk,Gdynia,Newa and Kommendant Pilsudski. Amongst those damaged was the Baltic.Maybe not aircraft carriers,everything from torpedo boats to minesweepers and destroyers,but all part of the Polish Navy.
This was in the first few days of the war.
"The rise and fall of the german Air Force",published in 1948 by the Air Ministry,concluded unequivovally about the effectiveness of the Stuka in the Polish campaign,not just against shipping, that;
"The outstanding success of the campiagn was the successful use of the Ju 87 dive bomber. With little or no opposition to hamper them the units equipped with this aircraft were able to exploit the accuracy of bomb aiming inherent in the steep dive,as well as the demoralising effect on personnel exposed to dive bombing attacks."
Steve
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cherry blossom
Senior Airman
- 504
- Apr 23, 2007
There seems to be some confusion over torpedoes in this thread. The point of the American 21" torpedo wasn't that it was as heavy as a ship launched torpedo. It was that it was short enough to fit inside an American torpedo bomber. An Avenger had difficulty carrying a British torpedo because it was too long which meant that the RN was still planning to use the Barracuda to drop torpedoes after they had started operating the Avenger. Here are some weights and lengths
British 18" air launched torpedoes from British Torpedoes of World War II
Mark XII: Weight 1,548 lbs. (702 kg) Length: 16 ft 3 in - 1939
Mark XVII: Weight 1,874.5 lbs. (850 kg) Length 17 ft 3.4 in (5.268 m) - 1945
By contrast, a ship launched British 21" Mark VIII weighted 3,452 lbs. (1,566 kg) and was 21 ft 7 in (6.579 m) long.
American 21" air launched torpedoes from USA Torpedoes of World War II
Mark 13 Mod 0: Weight 1,949 lbs. (884 kg) Length 13 ft. 5 in (4.089 m) - 1942
Mark 13 Mod 10: Weight 2,216 lbs. (1,005 kg) Length 13 ft, 9 in (4.191 m) - 1944-5
Japanese 45 cm air launched torpedoes from Japan Torpedoes of World War II
Type 91 Mod 2 Weight 1,841 lbs. (935 kg) Length 216 in (5.486 m) - 1941
Type 91 Mod 7: 2,319 lbs. (1,052 kg) Length 225 in (5.715 m) – 1945
The torpedoes of 1945, especially the American ones, were vastly better than those of 1939 for reasons explained in the videos at Aerial Torpedo Attack with Mk 13 Torpedo.
Finally I going to suggest that the Germans missed a trick by not designing a 21" air launched torpedo. They had a closed cycle motor that would fit in a 21" torpedo but it used aviation fuel and was not welcome aboard U-boats http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/weapons-systems-tech/junkers-km8-torpedo-engine-7556.html.
British 18" air launched torpedoes from British Torpedoes of World War II
Mark XII: Weight 1,548 lbs. (702 kg) Length: 16 ft 3 in - 1939
Mark XVII: Weight 1,874.5 lbs. (850 kg) Length 17 ft 3.4 in (5.268 m) - 1945
By contrast, a ship launched British 21" Mark VIII weighted 3,452 lbs. (1,566 kg) and was 21 ft 7 in (6.579 m) long.
American 21" air launched torpedoes from USA Torpedoes of World War II
Mark 13 Mod 0: Weight 1,949 lbs. (884 kg) Length 13 ft. 5 in (4.089 m) - 1942
Mark 13 Mod 10: Weight 2,216 lbs. (1,005 kg) Length 13 ft, 9 in (4.191 m) - 1944-5
Japanese 45 cm air launched torpedoes from Japan Torpedoes of World War II
Type 91 Mod 2 Weight 1,841 lbs. (935 kg) Length 216 in (5.486 m) - 1941
Type 91 Mod 7: 2,319 lbs. (1,052 kg) Length 225 in (5.715 m) – 1945
The torpedoes of 1945, especially the American ones, were vastly better than those of 1939 for reasons explained in the videos at Aerial Torpedo Attack with Mk 13 Torpedo.
Finally I going to suggest that the Germans missed a trick by not designing a 21" air launched torpedo. They had a closed cycle motor that would fit in a 21" torpedo but it used aviation fuel and was not welcome aboard U-boats http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/weapons-systems-tech/junkers-km8-torpedo-engine-7556.html.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
cherry blossom
Senior Airman
- 504
- Apr 23, 2007
There were good anti-shipping weapons available by 1945 if you had air superiority. Fritz-X or multiple late war torpedoes could sink a battleship at sea. Possibly Highball would have been effective on calm waters and we know that Tallboys also worked especially if the defences were slow and the ships at anchor. Smaller ships would have been vulnerable to the Hs 293 and many other weapons.
However, what if you do not have air superiority? You can either use a fast approach by day or you can attack by night. Neither the Ar 234 nor the Me 262 seem to have had much anti-shipping use. Presumably they could have dropped delay fused bombs in skip bombing attacks if they had been available for D-Day. The Nakajima Kikka would probably have been used as a Kamikaze.
My own namesake, the Kugisho MXY7 Ohka Model 11, was relatively ineffective because it had too short a range so that the carriers were vulnerable. The Model 33 was to have used a single Ne-20 jet and would have had both relatively long range and high speed. It looks like a very effective weapon but none were completed.
By night, you can attack at low speed using torpedoes as was demonstrated at Taranto by the RN. The IJN was still scoring hits on August 12th 1945 when a single torpedo inflicted devastating damage on USS Pennsylvania and night time attacks had inflicted damage on the USN throughout the war such as the attack on USS Intrepid on 17th February 1944. However, by 1944 even nightime torpedo attacks were starting to suffer heavy loses.
Japan responded by starting to develop infra-red guided missiles such as the Rikugun Maru-Ke (Ke-Go). During 60 tests between December 1944 and July 1945, only 5 or 6 homed on the raft target in Hamamatsu Bay. However, production was ordered but none were actually used (information from "Japanese Special Attack Aircraft and Flying Bombs" by Ryusuke Ishiguro Tadeusz Januszewski).
Meanwhile their USN opponents had brought the radar guided Bat (SWOD, for "Special Weapons Ordnance Device") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_(guided_bomb) into service and this had actually been used to damage the escort vessel Aguni Japanese Escorts. I think that I would chose the Bat if I had to attack an opponent with air superiority in 1945.
However, what if you do not have air superiority? You can either use a fast approach by day or you can attack by night. Neither the Ar 234 nor the Me 262 seem to have had much anti-shipping use. Presumably they could have dropped delay fused bombs in skip bombing attacks if they had been available for D-Day. The Nakajima Kikka would probably have been used as a Kamikaze.
My own namesake, the Kugisho MXY7 Ohka Model 11, was relatively ineffective because it had too short a range so that the carriers were vulnerable. The Model 33 was to have used a single Ne-20 jet and would have had both relatively long range and high speed. It looks like a very effective weapon but none were completed.
By night, you can attack at low speed using torpedoes as was demonstrated at Taranto by the RN. The IJN was still scoring hits on August 12th 1945 when a single torpedo inflicted devastating damage on USS Pennsylvania and night time attacks had inflicted damage on the USN throughout the war such as the attack on USS Intrepid on 17th February 1944. However, by 1944 even nightime torpedo attacks were starting to suffer heavy loses.
Japan responded by starting to develop infra-red guided missiles such as the Rikugun Maru-Ke (Ke-Go). During 60 tests between December 1944 and July 1945, only 5 or 6 homed on the raft target in Hamamatsu Bay. However, production was ordered but none were actually used (information from "Japanese Special Attack Aircraft and Flying Bombs" by Ryusuke Ishiguro Tadeusz Januszewski).
Meanwhile their USN opponents had brought the radar guided Bat (SWOD, for "Special Weapons Ordnance Device") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_(guided_bomb) into service and this had actually been used to damage the escort vessel Aguni Japanese Escorts. I think that I would chose the Bat if I had to attack an opponent with air superiority in 1945.
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Common myth, B-2 load plans clearly state always two men and the 1t load is with full fuel at 4870kg without armor or 5010kg with armor. R-1 load plans state this load was even possible with drop tanks at 5520 kg with armor or 5390 kg without armor.
Being wire guided, Fritz and He 293 had their limitations, but later versions of the Fritz X were not, although the type was withdrawn from anti-shipping duties later in the war, despite considerable successes. What these weapons did, however was establish that guided missiles (mind you, a Whitehead locomotive torpedo is a guided missile) was the way of the future in terms of sinking ships.
Regarding the Ohka - any suicide weapon, regardless of the device's complexity is a waste of resources! You are throwing away your most precious asset during a war.
Regarding the Ohka - any suicide weapon, regardless of the device's complexity is a waste of resources! You are throwing away your most precious asset during a war.
I reckon you mean Hs-293? It was radio guided, check here. I'm not aware of 'Fritz' without X, care to elaborate?
BTW, wasn't that also a 'Lupis', or 'Vukić' locomotive torpedo, the 'defender of the coast'
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Bombers cannot maneuver while carrying 1,000+ kg payload nor are they going to be particularly fast. Flight path is predictable if you know what they are attempting to bomb.
If you don't have air superiority the bombers get hammered. It makes little difference what type bomber is used.
If you don't have air superiority the bombers get hammered. It makes little difference what type bomber is used.
parsifal
Colonel
The argument gets circular. What instances can you quote of the B-2 actually carrying a 1000kg bomb into action, and in particular, what instances can be quoted fopr 1000kg ordinance dropped on ships at sea. The accounts I have read are Rudels attack on the marat, and as i understand it, on that occasion he did not have a rear gunner present.
Books mighht say one thing. Its the runs on the board that count
IIRC B-26 was able to penetrate CAP on it's own during Midway battle? Mosquito was operating during daylight many times without air superiority being achieved. SBDs were able to hit carriers, again, during Midway battle, without air superiority.
parsifal
Colonel
Well they did have longer I suppose, so it probably does stand to reason that there were many successful attacks by Ju87s.
However, coparing the operations of the LW in 1939 against the operations off Okinawa in 1945 shows what? There is no comparison between the two scenarios. Moreeover, nearly all the ships you mentioned either were beached or in some way "survived" these air attacks. Under the criteria that applies to Kamikaze kills, there were very few or no losses to the Polish Navy to the Stukas in 1939, because the majority were either beached, damaged or captured damaged, or scutteled by their crews. For the japanese, any ships fitting that bill, are not counted in the final tally. Fore exmple, more than 100 ships were damaged, bit were not returned to service, or returned to service aftrer the end of the war. Ships that did not sink immedialtely are not included in that 47 number. How many ships attacked by Stukas were protected by 1000+ fighters and sank more or less immediately as a result of damage sustained. On that basis, and applying those criteria, I would be fairly safe to say....none.
johnbr
2nd Lieutenant
My dad ship had a Hs-293 fired at them lucky for them the bombardier stalled it about 100 yards from the ship.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
1942 era IJN CAP was rather lame. A PBY managed a torpedo hit the day before the main Midway battle.
Now that was against the transport detachment covered by Tanaka's 1 CL and 10 DDs. Quite different target than Nagumo's carrier fleet and IIRC the Catalinas made a night attack.
Juha
Shortround6
Major General
For tonnage I would venture to GUESS the torpedo.
One 35,000 ton battleship equals how many smaller ships?
Between Tranto, Pearl Harbor (some ships saved by shallow water, they could only sink so far) Prince of Wales and Repulse, Yamato and Musashi and a few others the torpedo was the primary ship killer. Assisted by bombs in some cases but carrier aircraft had trouble carrying Battleship (or Heavy cruiser) "killing" bombs.
In the early part of the war the Torpedo planes had to carry the big armor piercing bombs because they were too heavy for the dive bombers. AP bombs have to be dropped from a certain minimum height for enough impact velocity to penetrate the armor. AP bombs carry much less explosive than GP bombs. US 1600lb AP bomb carried 209lb of explosive (13%) SAP bombs carried about 30% explosive and GP bombs were about 50-52% so a 500lb GP bomb had more explosive than the 1600lb AP bomb. A latter, but more common 1000lb AP bomb had 15% explosive and could penetrate a 5 in deck if dropped from 10,000ft or 6500ft in a 300kt 60 degree dive.
Japanese AP bombs used at Pearl Harbor were converted 16in shells and had 2.4% explosive.
The Guided missiles showed the way to the future.
One 35,000 ton battleship equals how many smaller ships?
Between Tranto, Pearl Harbor (some ships saved by shallow water, they could only sink so far) Prince of Wales and Repulse, Yamato and Musashi and a few others the torpedo was the primary ship killer. Assisted by bombs in some cases but carrier aircraft had trouble carrying Battleship (or Heavy cruiser) "killing" bombs.
In the early part of the war the Torpedo planes had to carry the big armor piercing bombs because they were too heavy for the dive bombers. AP bombs have to be dropped from a certain minimum height for enough impact velocity to penetrate the armor. AP bombs carry much less explosive than GP bombs. US 1600lb AP bomb carried 209lb of explosive (13%) SAP bombs carried about 30% explosive and GP bombs were about 50-52% so a 500lb GP bomb had more explosive than the 1600lb AP bomb. A latter, but more common 1000lb AP bomb had 15% explosive and could penetrate a 5 in deck if dropped from 10,000ft or 6500ft in a 300kt 60 degree dive.
Japanese AP bombs used at Pearl Harbor were converted 16in shells and had 2.4% explosive.
The Guided missiles showed the way to the future.
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