Agreed also. 8)
Best aircraft weapon on a plane during WWII
- Thread starter elmilitaro
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Erich
the old Sage
well I think sticking with 4 30mm's and a truck load of 24 plus R4M's is a good idea on the Me 262
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
i'm not sure i'd use a -262 as my first choice for air-to-air combat, i'd rather have something a bit more reliable, can turn tighter and actually gives me time to line up a shot 
"...actually gives me time to line up a shot."
I know you probably slow down on Il-2 to shoot down bombers - but you want to stay as fast as possible. The Me-262 was perfect for high speed passes, heavy armament and fast aircraft. If you can't hit anything - learn to shoot!
I used to slow down on Il-2 to blast bombers but now I keep it really fast, the gunners don't have a chance of hitting you.
I know you probably slow down on Il-2 to shoot down bombers - but you want to stay as fast as possible. The Me-262 was perfect for high speed passes, heavy armament and fast aircraft. If you can't hit anything - learn to shoot!
I used to slow down on Il-2 to blast bombers but now I keep it really fast, the gunners don't have a chance of hitting you.
Agreed Erich I wouldn't turn down the 30mm and the R4M.
And Lanc no one said anything about dogfighting with the 262. As you probably know the 262 with that armament was great for bomber killing.
And Lanc no one said anything about dogfighting with the 262. As you probably know the 262 with that armament was great for bomber killing.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Wasn´t one of the MG213/20 mm guns experimentally installed as a engine mounted gun in one of those long nose Fw-190? This weapon could do all you ask for...
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
The 262 was too fast. It had to dive below the bombers (~1500' and a position ~1 mile behind) and bleed speed off in a high G pull-out climb, levelling off at the intended victum's atltitude.
see Luftwaffe Handbook by Alfred Price, pg 20
see Luftwaffe Handbook by Alfred Price, pg 20
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Some of these tactics has been used in order to avoid interception by the masses of screening escort fighters. A number of the KG(J) Me-262 planes have been shot down because they reduced their speed in order to aim more precisely (energy tactics: always keep, not offer, your energy!).
I believe that there was no "too fast" for a ww2 fighter either.
Even the Me-163, while beeing the fastest combat plane of ww2, wasn´t too fast to get kills. It´s short endurance was the problem, not it´s speed.
I believe that there was no "too fast" for a ww2 fighter either.
Even the Me-163, while beeing the fastest combat plane of ww2, wasn´t too fast to get kills. It´s short endurance was the problem, not it´s speed.
Erich
the old Sage
the Me 262 unit JG 7 flew behind and above and attacked in porpoise style after it released its lethal cargo of R4M's. According to bomb group vets the jets flew thorugh the formation and upward not below, as well as from JG 7 jet piots.
Your reference is bogus KK. the 262 proved itself as a contender for top bomber killer in the Luftwaffes arsenal. as a fighter vs fighter we already know that it's turning radius and fuel deficintcies killed it
Your reference is bogus KK. the 262 proved itself as a contender for top bomber killer in the Luftwaffes arsenal. as a fighter vs fighter we already know that it's turning radius and fuel deficintcies killed it
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
Erich,
did I say they attacked from below?
I will tell Price that he does not know what he is talking about, if I ever meet him. Another reference source, which I can't put my hands now, also has a diagram of the described attack profile.
I also describe a gun only attack.
Why did they attack porpoise style after releasing the R4Ms and how much porpoise? Would say only to upset the aim of the gunners, for the R4Ms (usually released at a range of ~600m) were released inside the leathal distance of the .50s.
It was dangerous to fly below because of any debris that came off the bombers.
Where did you read that I said the 262 was not a bomber killer?
delcyros,
I think you misunderdstood, for sure, speed is life. That is before and after attacking the target. Attacking bombers from the rear, doing less than 200mph, at 500mph proved difficult, though not impossible. The closing rate at that speed differential was ~8,000m/min. A 262 pilot would have only a few seconds to acquire the target (500mph = ~223m/sec) and fire with the low flat range of the 30mm if they porpoised like Erich says. The attack profile did say they dived through the escorts at ~550mph.
More 163s were lost than what they 'killed'.
did I say they attacked from below?
I will tell Price that he does not know what he is talking about, if I ever meet him. Another reference source, which I can't put my hands now, also has a diagram of the described attack profile.I also describe a gun only attack.
Why did they attack porpoise style after releasing the R4Ms and how much porpoise? Would say only to upset the aim of the gunners, for the R4Ms (usually released at a range of ~600m) were released inside the leathal distance of the .50s.
It was dangerous to fly below because of any debris that came off the bombers.
Where did you read that I said the 262 was not a bomber killer?
delcyros,
I think you misunderdstood, for sure, speed is life. That is before and after attacking the target. Attacking bombers from the rear, doing less than 200mph, at 500mph proved difficult, though not impossible. The closing rate at that speed differential was ~8,000m/min. A 262 pilot would have only a few seconds to acquire the target (500mph = ~223m/sec) and fire with the low flat range of the 30mm if they porpoised like Erich says. The attack profile did say they dived through the escorts at ~550mph.
More 163s were lost than what they 'killed'.
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Very true, but mostly by operational accidents.
And my favorite all-around weapon is this; 38 kilos of nice german machinery, the Mauser MG-151/20.
Watching gun camera footage of Me-262s shooting up B-17s and B-24s shows fast passes with a lot of damage done to the bomber. They've been from under, behind, on top, even to the front! So, as del said, there was no aircraft too fast for aim in World War 2.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
The only problem with speed during attacks was the amount of lead or "rads" (if any) you had account for when developing a firing solution. Tactics! Once this was figured out, the -262 (and even the -163) could fire away at top speed (as stated by "D" and Del).
cheddar cheese
Major General
CharlesBronson said:
Very true, but mostly by operational accidents.
And my favorite all-around weapon is this; 38 kilos of nice german machinery, the Mauser MG-151/20.
Me too... 8)
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Is there any reliable source for Me-163 kills? For all units? Covering the timeframe till wars end? This would interest me.
The approaching speed of a Me-163, attacking an 200 mp/h fast bomber from the rear vector at 950 Km/h (590 mp/h) is 175 m/sec. That means the pilot has about 10 sec. from finding an plane, developing a firing solution, firing and breaking away. A little more than half of the time avaiable for a Fw-190 or Bf-109 attacking pass. It is enough to do so, if you ask me. But it would be better for the Komet, if the guns would have been removed for SG 115 Jagdfaust (automaticly upward firing recoilles grenades) and additional salvos of R-4M. Both weapon have been tested in the Me-163 A and B but not in combination.
The approaching speed of a Me-163, attacking an 200 mp/h fast bomber from the rear vector at 950 Km/h (590 mp/h) is 175 m/sec. That means the pilot has about 10 sec. from finding an plane, developing a firing solution, firing and breaking away. A little more than half of the time avaiable for a Fw-190 or Bf-109 attacking pass. It is enough to do so, if you ask me. But it would be better for the Komet, if the guns would have been removed for SG 115 Jagdfaust (automaticly upward firing recoilles grenades) and additional salvos of R-4M. Both weapon have been tested in the Me-163 A and B but not in combination.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
"One squadron (Jagdgeschwader 400 (J.G.400)) was equipped with the craft in two units, with the mission of defending synthetic gasoline installations during May 1944. First actions occurred at the end of July, attacking two USAAF B-17s without confirmed kills and continuing in combat from May 1944 to spring 1945. During this time, there were 9 confirmed kills with 14 lost."
I think the firing time is plenty. Keep the guns Del, they are more reliable!
I think the firing time is plenty. Keep the guns Del, they are more reliable!
Erich
the old Sage
accorodng to II./JG 400 Kommandeur Rudi Opitz, JG 400 had 12 kills. Measly compared to the losses sustained. Wolfgang Säte's book on the unit isn't bad neither is Mano Zieglers.......
ok back to the Me 262. the up down up attacks was to throw off the Bomber tail gunners .50 firing, also to disrupt the possible higher flying P-51 escorts. My reference to the jet being in contention with US fighters was not to ridicule anyone, it was just an obvious note aimed at no one.
Plan I think the attacks from the front via gun cam ~ me 262's were probably by piston engine fighters as the Me 262's were ordered to attack from the rear only. to discharge the R4M's enmasse and then attack by threes and sometimes individually plowing through the rear of the formation and then bank hopefully to repeat another attack with the short range Mk 108's
ok back to the Me 262. the up down up attacks was to throw off the Bomber tail gunners .50 firing, also to disrupt the possible higher flying P-51 escorts. My reference to the jet being in contention with US fighters was not to ridicule anyone, it was just an obvious note aimed at no one.
Plan I think the attacks from the front via gun cam ~ me 262's were probably by piston engine fighters as the Me 262's were ordered to attack from the rear only. to discharge the R4M's enmasse and then attack by threes and sometimes individually plowing through the rear of the formation and then bank hopefully to repeat another attack with the short range Mk 108's
Erich
the old Sage
even in the spring of 44 when the Luftwaffe was still attacking bombers from the front, aka JG 1 and JG 11 by stafflen strength the Fw 190A-7/MK was in existance and it had outboard Mk 108, 3cm weapons and of course you probably saw the result in the gun footage....characteristic of the Me 262
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