Best Bomber of WW2 (continued)

[DaveB.inVa]

http://www.unrealaircraft.com/forever/preww2.php
http://www.unrealaircraft.com/forever/improvisations.php
http://www.unrealaircraft.com/forever/long_range_fliers.php
http://www.unrealaircraft.com/forever/ww2.php


Heres some really good stuff about early inflight refueling. Heres another describing the flight of Lucky Lady II becoming the first nonstop circumnavigation of the globe. Its obvious that they used inflight refuelling but the method they used wasn't anything like the modern flying boom or even the probe and drogue system.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b4/b4-40.htm
http://www.afa.org/magazine/march1999/0399luckylady.asp
This article also references the Fokker C-2 named "Question Mark".

 

[wmaxt]

I've found some interesting information relating to the worst position in a bomber and rather than bringing te thread back I thought I'd post it here.

According to the 8th Air Force 95th BG
The following per position:
Position KIA POW
Pilot 58 81
C-Pilot 56 76
Nav. 56 87
Bomb 47 83
Top T 51 90
Radio 58 83
Ball T 56 85
Waist G 102 157
Tail G 57 89

The Site is 8th Air Force Combat Losses in World War II ETO Against the AXIS Powers. http://www.taphilo.com/history/8thaf/8aflosses.shtml

This site has loss numbers for all 8th AF aircraft and a lot of other stull.

wmaxt

 

[16KJV11]

Looks like the waste gunners had a very short life span!

 

[evangilder]

Keep in mind that there are 2 waist gunners, one of each side, so the number to be more realistic should be divided by 2.

 

[mosquitoman]

Taking that into account, it's one of the safer positions

 

[16KJV11]

How do you put pictures as a signature and under your user name?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well just back to the Best Axis Bomber thingy! That is kind of funny because the Axis never really developed any great bombers. I would however for the best in service go with the Ju-88. It could not carry a whole lot of bomb load but it was versatile as hell! For straight up innovativeness and potential I would go with the Ar-234, just because it was the first jet bomber.

 

[cheddar cheese]

Ju-88 would make a good bet. He-111 was ok in early years but rapidly became outclassed. There was the Ju-86 high altitude bomber, but I know very little of it. How did it fare?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Ju-86 was not too great. And was it really a high alltitude bomber?

Type:
Ju86D, E, G, and K: bomber
Ju 86P: Bomber/Reconnaissance
Ju 86R: Reconnaissance
Origin: Junkers Flugzeug und Motorenwerke AG
First Flight:
Ju 86V-1: November 4, 1934
Ju 86V-5 (bomber prototype): January 1936
Ju 86D-1: Late 1936
Ju 86P prototype: February 1940

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine:
Ju 86D:
Model: Junkers Jumo 205C
Type: 6-cylinder opposed-piston diesels
Number: Two Horsepower: 600hp

Ju 86E G
Model: BMW 132
Type: 9-cylinder radials
Number: Two Horsepower: 800 or 880hp

Ju 86K:
Model: Mercury XIX
Type: 9-cylinder radials
Number: Two Horsepower: 905hp

Ju 86P R:
Model: Junkers Jumo 207A-1 or 207B-3/V
Type: turbo-charged opposed-piston diesels
Number: Two Horsepower: 1,000hp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions:
Wing span:
Typical: 22.6m (73 ft. 10 in.)
Ju 86P: 25.6m (84 ft.)
Ju 86R: 32m (105 ft.)
Length:
Typical: 17.9m (58 ft. 8½ in.)
Ju 86G: 17.2m (56 ft. 5 in.)
Ju 86P, R: 16.46m (54 ft.)
Height: 4.7m (15 ft. 5 in.)
Wing Surface Area: 882.67 sq. ft. (82.00m²)

Weights:
Empty, Equipped:
Ju 86E-1: 5,200kg (11,464 lbs.)
Ju 86R-1: 6,700kg (14,771 lbs.)
Normal, Loaded:
Ju 86E-1: 8,200kg (18,080 lbs.)
Ju 86R-1: 11,530kg (25,420 lbs.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Performance: Normal,Loaded
Maximum Speed:
Ju 86E-1: 202 mph (325 kph)
Ju 86R-1: 261 mph (420 kph)
Range:
Ju 86E: 746 miles (1,200 km)
Ju 86R-1: 980 miles (1,577 km)
Initial climb: Ju 86E: 918 ft/min (280m/min)
Service Ceiling:
Ju 86E-1: 22,310 ft. (6,800 m)
Ju 86R-1: 42,650 ft. (13,000 m)

Armament:
Ju 86D, E, G, K:
Three 7.92mm MG 15 manually aimed from nose, dorsal and retractable ventral positions
Internal Bomb Load of four 551 lb. (250kg) bombs or 16 110lb. (50kg) bombs.

Ju 86P:
Single fixed 7.92mm MG 17 Same bomb load

Ju 86R: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Variant list:
Ju 86abl: First prototype, bomber configuration. Originally powered by Siemens SAM 9 radials.

Ju 86bal: Second prototype, transport configuration. Originally powered by Jumo 205C diesels.

Ju 86cb: Third prototype, bomber configuration. Later powered by Jumo 205C diesels.

Ju 86V4: Production prototype for commercial Ju 86B.

Ju 86V5: Production prototype for Ju 86A bomber.

Ju 86A-0: 13 pre-production bombers.

Ju 86B-0: 7 pre-production transports.

Ju 86C-1: Six Lufthansa transports with Jumo 205C diesels.

Ju 86E-1: Luftwaffe bombers with BMW 132F radials.

Ju 86E-2: Uprated version of E-1.

Ju 86G-1: 40 aircraft modified from Ju 86E-2s with round, glazed nose.

Ju 86K-1: Export version for Sweden South Africa.

Ju 86K-2: 66 aircraft built for Hungary.

Ju 86K-4: Built for Sweden (B 3A) with Pegasus III radials.

Ju 86K-5: Built for Sweden (B 3B) with Pegasus XII radials.

Ju 86K-6: Export version for Chile and Portugal.

Ju 86K-13: Swedish built with Pegasus radials.

Ju 86P-1 P-2: High Altitude reconnaisance. Converted from Ju 86D.

Ju 86R-1 R-2: As P series but with higher aspect wing.

The Junkers Ju 86 was a German monoplane bomber and civilian plane. The civilian transport model Ju 86B could carry ten passengers. Two were delivered to Swissair and five to Lufthansa.

The bomber had defensive armament of 3×MG15 and could carry a 1,000 kg bomb load. Early models (Ju 86-D1, 1936) had two Jumo 205C-4 diesel engines, but the Ju 86E replaced those with the BMW 132F.

Some were sold to Sweden, South Africa, Chile, Portugal, Manchukuo(Japan)and Hungary. The Ju 86K was an export model, also built under license in Sweden with different engines, and stayed in service with the Swedish Air Force until 1956.

The bomber model was tested in the Spanish Civil War, where it proved inferior to the Heinkel He 111. It was still used in the invasion of Poland 1939, but retired after that.

In January 1940 the Luftwaffe tested the new prototype Ju 86P that had a longer wing span, pressurized cabin, Jumo 207A diesel engines with twin turbochargers and only two man crew. The Ju 86P could fly at heights of 12,000 m, where it was safe from enemy fighters.

Some 40 old bombers were converted to Ju 86P-1 high altitude bombers and Ju 86P-2 photo reconnaissance aircraft. Those operated successfully for some years over Britain, the Soviet Union and North Africa. In August 1942 a modified Spitfire V shot one down over Egypt, and when two more were lost, Ju 86Ps were withdrawn from service 1943.

The Luftwaffe tried to develop the Ju 86R with even larger wings and prototype engines, that could have flown even higher, at 16,000 m, but production was limited to some prototypes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_86

 

[cheddar cheese]

Thanks for that. Yep it was used as one, as it says in your notes. The Recon versions could sure fly high.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeah but other then the recon versions, the Ju-86 fully loaded could not top the 25,000ft mark.

 

[Glider]

I thiknk that you will find that the Ju86 was also used by the SAAF for maritime recce off South Africa. You won't be suprised that they were armed civilian planes.
As for the best German Bomber, I have had a soft spot for the Do217. It was quite fast, had a good defensive armament and a decent bomb load. One of my contenders for the most underrated planes of the war

 

[plan_D]

The Spitfire Mk.VI (High Altitude) was developed to counter the Ju-86.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes the 86 was exported to many countries including Chile, Sweden, and South Africa.

 

[16KJV11]

The S.M. 79 was said to be a good bomber. It was used into the 1950's. Maybe Italy's finest contribution to bombers.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Maybe as a Torpedo Bomber however as a bomber it was quite obsolete.

 

[DaveB.inVa]

I always liked the 86 especially the P and R versions. They truly are an odd looking creature with the entire glazed nose and "pressure vessel" for the pressurized cockpit as opposed to the original stepped cockpit.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think it was an interesting looking aircraft however she was obsolete compared to the He-111 and the 111 was not the greatest bomber ever to see the light of day.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

and cirtainly not suited to large scale strateigic and tactical bombing..........

 

[mosquitoman]

Everyone's going to disagree with me but, the He-177 was quite good (when the engines weren't on fire)